8 ms·

Shepard Tone

99 points by tintinnabula 7y ago

smrq 7y ago
Similar in concept is the Risset rhythm (it's briefly alluded to in the article), where the tempo of the rhythm seems to constantly speed up or slow down. The song "Fold4, Wrap5" by Autechre is a cool example. It's not hard to see how it works, but it's a delightful effect regardless. Each bar has a point at which the beat shifts to a double-time version of itself, while the tempo of the track constantly decreases so that the double-time rhythm transitions back to the original rhythm.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  Here's an example: https://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de/MusicTechnology/uploads/826/Risset_accelerando_beat1.mp3 https://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de/MusicTechnology/uploads/826/Ri...
  - hansbo 7y ago
    That was really cool. Tried to tap along and noted how my rythm increased, but changed how many taps per beat I did over time.
  - joveian 7y ago
    I was going to say that this one (which sounds like a not that short loop) and the "fold4, wrap5" (which just sounds like a horrible short loop to me) didn't give me the same illusion, but then I listed to the one in the Wikipedia article again and it didn't work for me this time either (short loop). I think the Bach linked above broke the illusion for me or else it only works for a very limited time.
- lozaning 7y ago
  That song makes me really uncomfortable, like anxiety inducing. Neat! Always cool to see how different music makes different people vibe certain ways. Here's a youtube link if anyone else is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLvFsP1izS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLvFsP1izS4
  - taneq 7y ago
    Reminds me of the "getting short of breath" music in Sonic, although that doesn't use any fancy tricks.
  - fencepost 7y ago
    I can't imagine listening to that style as a regular thing, but I could easily picture that as "alien music" for a movie or atmospheric background. Not 'musical' as I would think of it, but clearly recognizable as music for very different ears or mental structures.
  - smountjoy 7y ago
    Interesting! I'd like to see a version where the double-time track is fading in continuously, instead of arriving all at once at the beginning of a measure (which would be a closer analogue of the Shepard Tone). Can't quite tell if the other reply is an example of that.
dwrodri 7y ago
There's a great example of Shepard Tones in Dunkirk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVWTQcZbLgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVWTQcZbLgY
- kennywinker 7y ago
  Can’t watch the video atm, but in case it’s not mentioned - Nolan says he based the structure of Dunkirk on the shepard tone. Always rising in intensity, never ending. Great film!
OscarCunningham 7y ago
What I'd like to see is the opposite effect: A keyboard where every note is generated using only combinations of Cs, but with the weightings chosen so that its average pitch is the one that that key usually has. This would have the strange consequence that nothing you played would sound dissonant and any piece you played would have the same affect as any other. It would probably be boring to listen to all the time, but interesting to hear it playing a piece which usually makes use of lots of dissonance.
- jarfil 7y ago
  Multiple pitches don't get averaged, it would sound like just a set of Cs. Could still be an interesting experiment, though.
  - boomlinde 7y ago
    You may not perceive the average for such large intervals, but there are cases in music where you typically will, for example during vibrato.
- yesenadam 7y ago
  This is not quite that, but does have a piece that had a lot of chord motion converted to all C major: (Coltrane's) Giant Steps in C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 For jazz musicians it's very funny, in a horrifying kind of way, maybe listen to the 1959 original first if you don't know it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 And thank you! While getting the links I found this wonderful animation of a shortened version of the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc p.s. Woohoo! Coltrane on HN! :-)
  - jackhack 7y ago
    Giant Steps _in C_? That's like a 6 color crayon coloring book version of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling. Thanks for posting this link. It's... musically obscene. To understand why shifting this piece to one key is such an abomination, it's important to know that Giant Steps normally has 26 chord changes in 16 bars. That's a furious pace, and it's changing keys, marching its way around the circle of fifths, as it goes. It's a simple concept, in a way, but devilishly difficult to execute at any tempo. The article below describes it as a M.C. Escher neverending staircase of music keys. It's evidence that Coltrane was the best. http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-john-coltranes-giant-steps-groundbreaking-radical.html http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-...
maleno 7y ago
My favourite Shepard Tone example is Stephin Merritt's 'Project Song' video for NPR [1]. It's also way more playful than most. https://youtu.be/OfFtEfxhMEQ https://youtu.be/OfFtEfxhMEQ
vincent-toups 7y ago
I feel like we're in a moment of cultural shepard tone - there is the sense that we are barreling towards something and yet also the sense that nothing can or is changing.
ashleyn 7y ago
The first example of this I can remember was the endless stairs music from Super Mario 64.
jancsika 7y ago
Here's a way to figure out how they work: Listen to Bach's Fantasia from Fantasia and Fugue in G minor, BWV 542: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWyiiOkhwoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWyiiOkhwoc At about 3:54 you'll hear a famous section where Bach starts "circling" around fifths. The general pattern is that the notes of the chords in the hands "rise" while the feet descend. Listen to the bass line. It seems to descend by step for thirty notes in a row. But try singing any note and singing down a scale for thirty notes in a row. You probably can't do it. And if Bach did that in the bassline the final note would be really low and flabby. So how does the bassline seem to continue descending by step while remaining in the same general range? The answer is a two-word phrase that is usually met by profound boredom in first-year music theory classes. But that concept is what Bach uses in the pitch domain here to achieve his aim. And its analogous to what happens in the frequency domain to produce a Shepard tone.
- Excel_Wizard 7y ago
  I'm used to hearing the terms time domain and frequency domain. But I've never heard pitch domain as a separate idea. Isn't pitch just the same as frequency?
  - n3k5 7y ago
    In this context, the term is just used to tell you to think in terms of pitch classes — where all notes that are separated by an integer multiple of an octave belong to the same class — and not expect actual Shepard tone trickery related to absolute pitch. However, the relationship between absolute pitch and frequency isn't always trivial. The latter is a physical phenomenon, but the former is psycho-acoustic. When you have sounds with a normal set of overtones that align with a harmonic series, the perceived pitch matches the fundamental frequency. But that frequency doesn't actually need to be audible. By weighting the amplitudes of the partials in a certain way, you can also construct a sound that will be perceived as different pitches by different listeners, or by the same listener under different circumstances. With sounds whose frequencies aren't all harmonic, assigning a pitch can get more complicated.
    - 7y ago
vagab0nd 7y ago
My favorite demonstration of this has to be the engine sound of the Batpod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bpUSNZQAb4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bpUSNZQAb4
piahoo 7y ago
i think it is worth to mention glenn branca, he used this technique a lot. good example is "The Tone Row That Ruled the World"
1-6 7y ago
Here's another one, built with Scratch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx96CbjUZbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx96CbjUZbA

99 points by tintinnabula 7y ago

smrq 7y ago

Similar in concept is the Risset rhythm (it's briefly alluded to in the article), where the tempo of the rhythm seems to constantly speed up or slow down. The song "Fold4, Wrap5" by Autechre is a cool example. It's not hard to see how it works, but it's a delightful effect regardless. Each bar has a point at which the beat shifts to a double-time version of itself, while the tempo of the track constantly decreases so that the double-time rhythm transitions back to the original rhythm.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
Here's an example: https://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de/MusicTechnology/uploads/826/Risset_accelerando_beat1.mp3 https://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de/MusicTechnology/uploads/826/Ri...
- hansbo 7y ago
  That was really cool. Tried to tap along and noted how my rythm increased, but changed how many taps per beat I did over time.
- joveian 7y ago
  I was going to say that this one (which sounds like a not that short loop) and the "fold4, wrap5" (which just sounds like a horrible short loop to me) didn't give me the same illusion, but then I listed to the one in the Wikipedia article again and it didn't work for me this time either (short loop). I think the Bach linked above broke the illusion for me or else it only works for a very limited time.
lozaning 7y ago
That song makes me really uncomfortable, like anxiety inducing. Neat! Always cool to see how different music makes different people vibe certain ways. Here's a youtube link if anyone else is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLvFsP1izS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLvFsP1izS4
- taneq 7y ago
  Reminds me of the "getting short of breath" music in Sonic, although that doesn't use any fancy tricks.
- fencepost 7y ago
  I can't imagine listening to that style as a regular thing, but I could easily picture that as "alien music" for a movie or atmospheric background. Not 'musical' as I would think of it, but clearly recognizable as music for very different ears or mental structures.
- smountjoy 7y ago
  Interesting! I'd like to see a version where the double-time track is fading in continuously, instead of arriving all at once at the beginning of a measure (which would be a closer analogue of the Shepard Tone). Can't quite tell if the other reply is an example of that.

dwrodri 7y ago

There's a great example of Shepard Tones in Dunkirk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVWTQcZbLgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVWTQcZbLgY

kennywinker 7y ago
Can’t watch the video atm, but in case it’s not mentioned - Nolan says he based the structure of Dunkirk on the shepard tone. Always rising in intensity, never ending. Great film!

OscarCunningham 7y ago

What I'd like to see is the opposite effect: A keyboard where every note is generated using only combinations of Cs, but with the weightings chosen so that its average pitch is the one that that key usually has. This would have the strange consequence that nothing you played would sound dissonant and any piece you played would have the same affect as any other. It would probably be boring to listen to all the time, but interesting to hear it playing a piece which usually makes use of lots of dissonance.

jarfil 7y ago
Multiple pitches don't get averaged, it would sound like just a set of Cs. Could still be an interesting experiment, though.
- boomlinde 7y ago
  You may not perceive the average for such large intervals, but there are cases in music where you typically will, for example during vibrato.
yesenadam 7y ago
This is not quite that, but does have a piece that had a lot of chord motion converted to all C major: (Coltrane's) Giant Steps in C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 For jazz musicians it's very funny, in a horrifying kind of way, maybe listen to the 1959 original first if you don't know it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 And thank you! While getting the links I found this wonderful animation of a shortened version of the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc p.s. Woohoo! Coltrane on HN! :-)
- jackhack 7y ago
  Giant Steps _in C_? That's like a 6 color crayon coloring book version of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling. Thanks for posting this link. It's... musically obscene. To understand why shifting this piece to one key is such an abomination, it's important to know that Giant Steps normally has 26 chord changes in 16 bars. That's a furious pace, and it's changing keys, marching its way around the circle of fifths, as it goes. It's a simple concept, in a way, but devilishly difficult to execute at any tempo. The article below describes it as a M.C. Escher neverending staircase of music keys. It's evidence that Coltrane was the best. http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-john-coltranes-giant-steps-groundbreaking-radical.html http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-...

maleno 7y ago

My favourite Shepard Tone example is Stephin Merritt's 'Project Song' video for NPR [1]. It's also way more playful than most. https://youtu.be/OfFtEfxhMEQ https://youtu.be/OfFtEfxhMEQ

vincent-toups 7y ago

I feel like we're in a moment of cultural shepard tone - there is the sense that we are barreling towards something and yet also the sense that nothing can or is changing.

ashleyn 7y ago

The first example of this I can remember was the endless stairs music from Super Mario 64.

jancsika 7y ago

Here's a way to figure out how they work: Listen to Bach's Fantasia from Fantasia and Fugue in G minor, BWV 542: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWyiiOkhwoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWyiiOkhwoc At about 3:54 you'll hear a famous section where Bach starts "circling" around fifths. The general pattern is that the notes of the chords in the hands "rise" while the feet descend. Listen to the bass line. It seems to descend by step for thirty notes in a row. But try singing any note and singing down a scale for thirty notes in a row. You probably can't do it. And if Bach did that in the bassline the final note would be really low and flabby. So how does the bassline seem to continue descending by step while remaining in the same general range? The answer is a two-word phrase that is usually met by profound boredom in first-year music theory classes. But that concept is what Bach uses in the pitch domain here to achieve his aim. And its analogous to what happens in the frequency domain to produce a Shepard tone.

Excel_Wizard 7y ago
I'm used to hearing the terms time domain and frequency domain. But I've never heard pitch domain as a separate idea. Isn't pitch just the same as frequency?
- n3k5 7y ago
  In this context, the term is just used to tell you to think in terms of pitch classes — where all notes that are separated by an integer multiple of an octave belong to the same class — and not expect actual Shepard tone trickery related to absolute pitch. However, the relationship between absolute pitch and frequency isn't always trivial. The latter is a physical phenomenon, but the former is psycho-acoustic. When you have sounds with a normal set of overtones that align with a harmonic series, the perceived pitch matches the fundamental frequency. But that frequency doesn't actually need to be audible. By weighting the amplitudes of the partials in a certain way, you can also construct a sound that will be perceived as different pitches by different listeners, or by the same listener under different circumstances. With sounds whose frequencies aren't all harmonic, assigning a pitch can get more complicated.
  - 7y ago

vagab0nd 7y ago

My favorite demonstration of this has to be the engine sound of the Batpod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bpUSNZQAb4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bpUSNZQAb4

piahoo 7y ago

i think it is worth to mention glenn branca, he used this technique a lot. good example is "The Tone Row That Ruled the World"

1-6 7y ago

Here's another one, built with Scratch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx96CbjUZbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx96CbjUZbA