10 ms·

That's great that you don't do that. Sorry if this is blunt: Paying low 100s + de minimis equity for distributed systems and DSP engineers in a super high COL

That's great that you don't do that. Sorry if this is blunt: Paying low 100s + de minimis equity for distributed systems and DSP engineers in a super high COL city like LA is going to be a hard sell for most. People with real experience in those fields will be older, can't reasonably support a family there on that salary, and have a lot of options. The type of inexperienced employee who could pick these things up quickly is already being courted by FANGs on campus, for more money. To get someone to work for that salary, the equity needs to be meaningful, or the startup needs to be the next Facebook or Google, not a niche product. If I'm thinking of working for you, at the max equity you list, the rosiest picture I could paint myself is an exit 4 years from now for $500mm, after which I'd get $500k assuming no dilution = $125k a year. And that's assuming all the stars align to make that happen. I don't think you should close, since you have a cool product, but maybe consider moving to a lower COL area? I'm sure you could find plenty of people in a place like Huntsville, AL. Lots of defense contractors have engineers with the skills you need and I bet working for a fun startup would be more exciting than what they're doing now.

belltaco 7y ago
Or he can set up a sister office in Vancouver, and hire people from all over the world(including Huntsville, Alabama). In person conferences can happen in LA or Vancouver with tourist visas. And have the same time zone. More and more companies are doing this, that's why the article mentions Toronto.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  This is why over the long-term, restrictive immigration laws will cause tech jobs to move abroad. There is no fundamental reason why the global tech industry has to be so concentrated in Silicon Valley. The workforce - which is heavily international - is there at the moment, but if American immigration policies restrict the workforce, the companies will eventually move operations to wherever their workers are.
  - Amezarak 7y ago
    I don't see a problem with this. GDP uber alles is a losing proposition that destroys communities and cultures. Silicon Valley as the tech hub doesn't seem to have done us much good. I don't think it's even sensible from a business perspective. There is a concentration of talent in SV, but that very concentration led to very high labor costs and skyrocketing housing prices. There is plenty of great talent elsewhere in the country for more affordable prices. There's no reason a startup with < 100 employees should be avoiding flyover country or the east coast, aside from Silicon Valley hype. Yes, if you grow large enough, it will be more difficult to find talent...so open offices elsewhere. At the same time, if the companies export their labor to exploitative countries, their goods and services can be tariffed.
    - belltaco 7y ago
      The problem with flyover countries and other places inside the US is the same fickle immigration rules apply. And how many people around the US want to migrate to Alabama or Mississippi? >At the same time, if the companies export their labor to exploitative countries, their goods and services can be tariffed. This isn't manufacturing. I really doubt local techies in Canada or India are being exploited.
      - selimthegrim 7y ago
        It's almost like there's no metropole for those states. Say, at the mouth of the Mississippi?
      - Amezarak 7y ago
        > The problem with flyover countries and other places inside the US is the same fickle immigration rules apply. And how many people around the US want to migrate to Alabama or Mississippi? There are many universities in Alabama and Mississippi that produce ample high-quality graduates. I can tell you that, comparing with the courses published on OCW, my curriculum and its rigor did not differ much from that of MIT. This is where the tech companies located throughout the region get most of their employees. There are, right now, tech jobs in places like New Orleans, Mobile, Huntsville, Birmingham, Hattiesburg, Jackson, and at least a half-dozen other cities in those two states - and not just one or two employers in each, but enough to jump around a little during your career. So, a company opening there could expect to draw from the same pool of talent everyone else is, and successfully attract a lot of candidates for salaries great for the area and substantially less offered by FAANG. Not a lot do it (just one guy in my class, for example), but as the number of jobs and their pay increased, less people would leave to work in CA. Eventually, yes, you'd drawn in people who want to move here from other places. About a quarter of my current workplace (~150 employees) relocated from elsewhere in the country. If you get to the point where you can't find anyone else for any sane amount of money, then...open up another office somewhere else in the country. Why is your first jump that fickle immigration rules are going to be the problem rather than hiring the people already here?
doh 7y ago
Good analysis. The reality however is, that there are hardly any people with experience in other areas. We can only follow the current distribution and don't have a decade to build out our own talent from scratch. We invest heavily in education and growth, but it still has some time limits. We already have sister offices in CO, MN and Czech Republic for this reason. It ads crazy complexity to the operations, but at least we have access to more talent than we had before.
- blihp 7y ago
  I'd suggest that your premise ('hardly any people with experience') is wrong. Half the skills you list are relatively common. For a company of your size, finding a few dozen people with most of those skills in any major metro area in the U.S. is pretty trivial. Granted, the price you'll have to pay for them might not make you happy[1]... but they do exist. [1] it's not FAANG level, but it's also not 105k. (if your top end compensation is significantly higher, you should probably be indicating that. Or perhaps breaking out minimum salary by position if they differ significantly.)
  - doh 7y ago
    > Half the skills you list are relatively common Which skills? > it's not FAANG level, but it's also not 105k. 105k is minimum wage for an engineer. That's why it says minimum in the post.
    - blihp 7y ago
      > Which skills? C/C++, DBA/Architect, Java, DevOps, QA > 105k is minimum wage for an engineer. That's why it says minimum in the post. Perhaps it's just me, but when I see a salary listing without I high-end, I assume that's because it's pretty low.
      - doh 7y ago
        > C/C++, DBA/Architect, Java, DevOps, QA Those are not skills, those are positions. We don't list skills, as they are quite arbitrary and really don't say much about their potential. > Perhaps it's just me, but when I see a salary listing without I high-end, I assume that's because it's pretty low. We found that writing the upper bound, many candidate assume that the upper bound is the general compensation and get quite upset if we don't value them as high. We found this to be working better.

belltaco 7y ago

Or he can set up a sister office in Vancouver, and hire people from all over the world(including Huntsville, Alabama). In person conferences can happen in LA or Vancouver with tourist visas. And have the same time zone. More and more companies are doing this, that's why the article mentions Toronto.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
This is why over the long-term, restrictive immigration laws will cause tech jobs to move abroad. There is no fundamental reason why the global tech industry has to be so concentrated in Silicon Valley. The workforce - which is heavily international - is there at the moment, but if American immigration policies restrict the workforce, the companies will eventually move operations to wherever their workers are.
- Amezarak 7y ago
  I don't see a problem with this. GDP uber alles is a losing proposition that destroys communities and cultures. Silicon Valley as the tech hub doesn't seem to have done us much good. I don't think it's even sensible from a business perspective. There is a concentration of talent in SV, but that very concentration led to very high labor costs and skyrocketing housing prices. There is plenty of great talent elsewhere in the country for more affordable prices. There's no reason a startup with < 100 employees should be avoiding flyover country or the east coast, aside from Silicon Valley hype. Yes, if you grow large enough, it will be more difficult to find talent...so open offices elsewhere. At the same time, if the companies export their labor to exploitative countries, their goods and services can be tariffed.
  - belltaco 7y ago
    The problem with flyover countries and other places inside the US is the same fickle immigration rules apply. And how many people around the US want to migrate to Alabama or Mississippi? >At the same time, if the companies export their labor to exploitative countries, their goods and services can be tariffed. This isn't manufacturing. I really doubt local techies in Canada or India are being exploited.
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      It's almost like there's no metropole for those states. Say, at the mouth of the Mississippi?
    - Amezarak 7y ago
      > The problem with flyover countries and other places inside the US is the same fickle immigration rules apply. And how many people around the US want to migrate to Alabama or Mississippi? There are many universities in Alabama and Mississippi that produce ample high-quality graduates. I can tell you that, comparing with the courses published on OCW, my curriculum and its rigor did not differ much from that of MIT. This is where the tech companies located throughout the region get most of their employees. There are, right now, tech jobs in places like New Orleans, Mobile, Huntsville, Birmingham, Hattiesburg, Jackson, and at least a half-dozen other cities in those two states - and not just one or two employers in each, but enough to jump around a little during your career. So, a company opening there could expect to draw from the same pool of talent everyone else is, and successfully attract a lot of candidates for salaries great for the area and substantially less offered by FAANG. Not a lot do it (just one guy in my class, for example), but as the number of jobs and their pay increased, less people would leave to work in CA. Eventually, yes, you'd drawn in people who want to move here from other places. About a quarter of my current workplace (~150 employees) relocated from elsewhere in the country. If you get to the point where you can't find anyone else for any sane amount of money, then...open up another office somewhere else in the country. Why is your first jump that fickle immigration rules are going to be the problem rather than hiring the people already here?

doh 7y ago

Good analysis. The reality however is, that there are hardly any people with experience in other areas. We can only follow the current distribution and don't have a decade to build out our own talent from scratch. We invest heavily in education and growth, but it still has some time limits. We already have sister offices in CO, MN and Czech Republic for this reason. It ads crazy complexity to the operations, but at least we have access to more talent than we had before.

blihp 7y ago
I'd suggest that your premise ('hardly any people with experience') is wrong. Half the skills you list are relatively common. For a company of your size, finding a few dozen people with most of those skills in any major metro area in the U.S. is pretty trivial. Granted, the price you'll have to pay for them might not make you happy[1]... but they do exist. [1] it's not FAANG level, but it's also not 105k. (if your top end compensation is significantly higher, you should probably be indicating that. Or perhaps breaking out minimum salary by position if they differ significantly.)
- doh 7y ago
  > Half the skills you list are relatively common Which skills? > it's not FAANG level, but it's also not 105k. 105k is minimum wage for an engineer. That's why it says minimum in the post.
  - blihp 7y ago
    > Which skills? C/C++, DBA/Architect, Java, DevOps, QA > 105k is minimum wage for an engineer. That's why it says minimum in the post. Perhaps it's just me, but when I see a salary listing without I high-end, I assume that's because it's pretty low.
    - doh 7y ago
      > C/C++, DBA/Architect, Java, DevOps, QA Those are not skills, those are positions. We don't list skills, as they are quite arbitrary and really don't say much about their potential. > Perhaps it's just me, but when I see a salary listing without I high-end, I assume that's because it's pretty low. We found that writing the upper bound, many candidate assume that the upper bound is the general compensation and get quite upset if we don't value them as high. We found this to be working better.