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Even if we accept your premise - people have limited mobility due to benefits - that is nothing at all like being a government. Governments by definition have

Even if we accept your premise - people have limited mobility due to benefits - that is nothing at all like being a government. Governments by definition have a monopoly on force. A government is a government because people with guns say so. You might want to argue that employees have power, but they are nothing like a government. They don't have force, they don't have jails, they can't enter your home and give you orders. The worst thing an employer can do is to stop employing you. That's hardly coercion IMO.

CogitoCogito 7y ago
> Governments by definition have a monopoly on force. I've never heard that definition of government. Also, at least in the US (and presumably everywhere else), private citizens have the right to use force under various circumstances.
- dahfizz 7y ago
  This is literally the definition of government used in e.g. social science: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence > private citizens have the right to use force under various circumstances. Yup, as defined by the government. You can defend yourself in certain circumstances, but you are always subservient to the military and police. They are the ultimate power in the state. If there was a force stronger than the military or police, that power would then be the state.
- ObscureMind 7y ago
  Is the state's army economically funded by a contract established voluntarily? Can you start a private army to compete (not meaning fight it, but to provide the same services) with the state's army ? If you have to pay for it (you actually pay for the army to force you to pay for it...), and you can't compete with it for the services it provides, it's not only a monopoly, it's also a tyranny.
  - ggg3 7y ago
    not really. you are just too poor. if you had the means to create the right connections, you could be paid by the army, like blackwater.
- abdullahkhalids 7y ago
  > The term state refers to a form of polity that is typically characterised as a centralized organisation. There is no single, undisputed definition of what constitutes a state.[1][2] A widely-used definition is a state being a polity that, within a given territory, maintains a monopoly on the use of force, but many other widely used definitions exist.[3][4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity) It is probably the most common definition. As per this definition, the citizens can use force because the state grants them that right.
petermcneeley 7y ago
Yes but your under a social contract whos terms are completely clear. You may not like these terms but in any western country you are completely free to find a different country with different terms (exactly the same if you find yourself in a company that would like to leave). You see my libertarian friend its all purely contract law and therefore completely legitimate ;)
- dahfizz 7y ago
  Again, if we accept your premise ( I definitely do not accept your social contract, but that's a different matter) that still doesn't make an employer a government. Their contractual nature is similar in that way, but there are still the fundamental differences already talked about. By your way of thinking, any business is a government.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
Not employing you at a whim does more than just make you work at a different place the next day. You now need to spend an undefined amount of time looking for a new job. You need to find that new job soon, because your old job was tied to important things like health insurance, without which any accident could bankrupt you. It was also tied to less important benefits like vacation time and seniority, which reset at youe new job. Previously had 3 weeks off available after working for years at the same shop? Back to 6 days. At some places it may also be tied to a car, computer, or phone plan which you have come to depend on. Not to mention that getting fired is a black mark on your ability to get a new job in the future. Employers like to structure things such that they can replace an employee with little impact. They have people whose job it is to manage that process. To an employee, even an unusually well prepared one with savings and a plan and a current resume, losing one's job is a catastrophic event that can only be easily withstood a handful of times in a career.
blunte 7y ago
> The worst thing an employer can do ... There are many other things and employer can do, such as the aforementioned non-compete "agreements", changing pension and other retirement benefits (threatening to take them away as pressure), colluding with other employers to keep your wages down (https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f578d157-2b2a-4c2b-8e1d-80802c9e77d5 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f578d157-2b2a...), and more.

CogitoCogito 7y ago

> Governments by definition have a monopoly on force. I've never heard that definition of government. Also, at least in the US (and presumably everywhere else), private citizens have the right to use force under various circumstances.

dahfizz 7y ago
This is literally the definition of government used in e.g. social science: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence > private citizens have the right to use force under various circumstances. Yup, as defined by the government. You can defend yourself in certain circumstances, but you are always subservient to the military and police. They are the ultimate power in the state. If there was a force stronger than the military or police, that power would then be the state.
ObscureMind 7y ago
Is the state's army economically funded by a contract established voluntarily? Can you start a private army to compete (not meaning fight it, but to provide the same services) with the state's army ? If you have to pay for it (you actually pay for the army to force you to pay for it...), and you can't compete with it for the services it provides, it's not only a monopoly, it's also a tyranny.
- ggg3 7y ago
  not really. you are just too poor. if you had the means to create the right connections, you could be paid by the army, like blackwater.
abdullahkhalids 7y ago
> The term state refers to a form of polity that is typically characterised as a centralized organisation. There is no single, undisputed definition of what constitutes a state.[1][2] A widely-used definition is a state being a polity that, within a given territory, maintains a monopoly on the use of force, but many other widely used definitions exist.[3][4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity) It is probably the most common definition. As per this definition, the citizens can use force because the state grants them that right.

petermcneeley 7y ago

Yes but your under a social contract whos terms are completely clear. You may not like these terms but in any western country you are completely free to find a different country with different terms (exactly the same if you find yourself in a company that would like to leave). You see my libertarian friend its all purely contract law and therefore completely legitimate ;)

dahfizz 7y ago
Again, if we accept your premise ( I definitely do not accept your social contract, but that's a different matter) that still doesn't make an employer a government. Their contractual nature is similar in that way, but there are still the fundamental differences already talked about. By your way of thinking, any business is a government.

LeifCarrotson 7y ago

Not employing you at a whim does more than just make you work at a different place the next day. You now need to spend an undefined amount of time looking for a new job. You need to find that new job soon, because your old job was tied to important things like health insurance, without which any accident could bankrupt you. It was also tied to less important benefits like vacation time and seniority, which reset at youe new job. Previously had 3 weeks off available after working for years at the same shop? Back to 6 days. At some places it may also be tied to a car, computer, or phone plan which you have come to depend on. Not to mention that getting fired is a black mark on your ability to get a new job in the future. Employers like to structure things such that they can replace an employee with little impact. They have people whose job it is to manage that process. To an employee, even an unusually well prepared one with savings and a plan and a current resume, losing one's job is a catastrophic event that can only be easily withstood a handful of times in a career.

blunte 7y ago

> The worst thing an employer can do ... There are many other things and employer can do, such as the aforementioned non-compete "agreements", changing pension and other retirement benefits (threatening to take them away as pressure), colluding with other employers to keep your wages down (https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f578d157-2b2a-4c2b-8e1d-80802c9e77d5 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f578d157-2b2a...), and more.