16 ms·

If we remove alcohol from the equation I think whats more pertinent is the death of the “third place”. Churches are dying. If the article is to be extrapolated

If we remove alcohol from the equation I think whats more pertinent is the death of the “third place”. Churches are dying. If the article is to be extrapolated then smaller local bars are dying. Where do people go other than online to socialize. Thats important to understand.

crazygringo 7y ago
I honestly can't understand that at all. The "third place" has exploded and has never been more vibrant in the history of mankind, at least if you live in a city. Yoga classes, coffee shops, CrossFit, meetups, hiking groups, rock climbing, dance parties, marathons, evening painting classes where they serve wine, improv comedy shows, improv comedy classes, cooking classes, language classes, indie band shows of every type. Meditation, Buddhism, any kind of spirituality you might be into. Literally everything just a few clicks away on Google. You don't need to "know somebody", you can just go. Go a few times in a row and make conversation with people, and suddenly you've got community and new friends. Modern culture is an incredible smorgasboard where you can connect with every type of person through pretty much every type of activity known to man, whether athletic or artistic or spiritual or educational or all four. The bar was a kind of lowest-common-denominator location that often came with a drinking problem. Bars still exist, but today's alternatives are almost infinitely more varied and vibrant.
- rexgallorum2 7y ago
  That is true, but those are all interest based activities, things you do at 7pm on a Tuesday night, between getting off work and passing out while watching netflix. They aren't places where one can go to simply 'be', or to mingle with strangers. In Ireland for example, people would do those things and then go to the pub afterwards. Think of the Prancing Pony in the Lord of the Rings...a place where locals and travellers can mix and mingle and converse as much or as little as they please.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - criddell 7y ago
    > In Ireland for example, people would do those things and then go to the pub afterwards. I love the idea of a hot yoga session before heading to the pub for a couple of pints and some darts.
    - i386 7y ago
      Nothing as beautiful as cans with the lads and a couple of smokes too
      - rexgallorum2 7y ago
        :)
  - mushufasa 7y ago
    This also sounds like the Ethiopian concept of coffee as a 'social house.' There's a place in the ethiopian neighborhood of DC that really practices this: https://www.kaldissocial.com/#new-page-1-section https://www.kaldissocial.com/#new-page-1-section
  - tomlockwood 7y ago
    There is a fair bit of social pressure to drink in a bar though, it isn't exactly a place to just "be" in that regard.
- bluedino 7y ago
  >> Yoga classes, coffee shops, CrossFit, meetups, hiking groups, rock climbing, dance parties, marathons, evening painting classes where they serve wine, improv comedy shows, improv comedy classes, cooking classes, language classes, indie band shows of every type. Your white upper-middle class is showing
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't do this here. Even if you're right, it only adds poison to the commons.
- rexpop 7y ago
  None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities, and non-participatory performances. Not the same thing. They don't facilitate the same social or psychological functions as the relaxed, inexpensive, unstimulating and improvisational third-place.
  - tim58 7y ago
    > None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities Many meditation and Buddhist activities are free or donation only. It's a common attribute that Buddhist retreats are completely free before and during the event, and only after you receive a piece of mail soliciting a donation. There _are_ more commercial meditation based activities but those are more lifestyle than spiritual.
    - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
      What if you don’t believe in Buddhism or the particular meditation approach advocated? I agree that these sorts of events are not quite third places as a modern society of people of varied or no religious belief would expect. Also, due to movements like the Hare Krishnas advertising free events (often without specifying that it was the Hare Krishnas or whatever other sect organizing it) for the sake of bait-and-switch recruitment, people are understandably suspicious of any vague "spirituality" or "meditation" event where free entrance is advertised.
    - rexpop 7y ago
      You're both a) cherry-picking and b) overlooking the second half of my post.
- brailsafe 7y ago
  I agree with the others. While these may be options, they're all activities or events, not just a default place to hangout or be and where you're not there because one specific thing ties you together
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  > coffee shops Central Europe is losing the vibrant cafe culture it used to have, where people could sit together for hours and chat. Cafes today often blast loud pop music and send staff around more frequently to pester clients who seem to have finished their drinks, as owners believe this will prevent people from loitering. Instead, customers will quickly drink what they ordered and then get out, freeing the table for other customers. Perhaps in the USA the situation is different, but I live in a city with a tradition of quiet, intellectual cafes that goes back centuries, and was still like that a decade ago, but now I am hard pressed to find a single place that would be pleasant to socialize even with my friends in, let alone mingle with other regulars and strike up conversations with strangers.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    Speaking here in the US, if you don't have a local coffee shop your neighborhood is probably not very vibrant, and lots of business happens in these local coffee shops. I host meetings at my local coffee shop all the time and see others doing the same thing. Even if all you have is Starbucks, there's still tons of meetings that happen at Starbucks and you're not likely to be hassled to leave. I'm much more likely to be pushed out the door at my local brewery or bar than I am at a coffee shop. If I had to guess it's because coffee tends to be a grab-and-go whereas beer cannot be served in a to-go cup so it has to be served and consumed inside the building with few alternatives if the seats are all full.
    - pixelrevision 7y ago
      Huh. My experience in nyc is that most of the coffeeshops tend to have hordes of people on laptops with earbuds on ignoring each other.
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        I think that New York City may be particularly bad in this regard. I remember when I lived in Saratoga Springs (a small city upstate), I could strike up conversations with strangers on the bus or train, and did all the time. Here in NYC, that's nearly unthinkable—only crazy people do it.
- sneak 7y ago
  I believe that the activity-based stuff you list is quite orthogonal to the concept of “the third place”.
- pas 7y ago
  True, but ... this explosion and this embarrassment of riches also led to people not engaging with a "community of some interest group" (so a subculture), but just paying for it. In and out in a few hours. To acquire friends one has to get to know people, and also people have to know one. It takes time to open up. I'm not saying bars were this magical place. No. Bars were the place people who for some reason spent enough time together to get to a bar went to.
- jvagner 7y ago
  I work out a lot. I’ve tried taking classes or joining the lifting team. But I don’t like working up out on a schedule. I get to the gym when I get to the gym. I don’t drink anymore but when I lived in NYC I went to the neighborhood bar and was part of a loose knit group of people who went there too. Classes, schedules and fees don’t point to the same thing. I do miss the mid 90s indie coffeeshop scene. I think some of these things may die off when people our age have kids. I didn’t have a kid when I did these things before. Maybe schedules and fees facilitate third place activities when you’re negotiating time with your co-parent. Now my kid is mid-teens and I have my free nights for third place things. But I’m not likely to attend a thing at a time and pay a fee. I’ll go for a trail run, with my partner or by myself.
rexgallorum2 7y ago
Any good neighbourhood needs a little public green space, and a few pubs and coffee houses. To hell with zoning or other rules that separate living spaces from public drinking spaces.
- rexgallorum2 7y ago
  (The green spaces are for drinking too. Possibly with guitars and snacks.)
jefftk 7y ago
In my life contra dancing fills this role. It's a place I can go to socialize with friends and strangers, dance, and listen to live music. There are dances all over the country, and when I'm traveling for work I often look up the local dance (https://trycontra.com https://trycontra.com) and drop in. Wherever I am I have a good time.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  It is not the same. I used to go dancing for years, but most people were going to a bar after that to socialize. Some dance events are a combination of both (the milonga for Argentine tango), but I haven't seen one to replace it.
  - notnarb 7y ago
    I think a country bar/dance hall/saloon is unique in this regard when it comes to social dancing destinations. They are certainly not for everyone but I have yet to have found another type of social dancing venue that balances being a hangout spot and a place to dance. Line dancing in particular brings something to the table outside of couples dancing that gives those not interested in the potentially-unfamiliar social situation of dancing with someone else a reason to go. I think that especially helps to keep these communities going. Quick plug: I've been trying to catalog country venues (and their dances and songs) at https://dancedocket.com https://dancedocket.com
- nunez 7y ago
  highly depends on the person but i hate dancing with strangers and would never do this in contrast, i absolutely enjoy drinking tasty beer and cocktails with people i don't know
newnewpdro 7y ago
Cafes in my experience.
track_me_now 7y ago
Good point. I don't think many would bemoan the loss of a bar, but they should recognize that losing a place other than home or work could have dramatic and far reaching impact. In addition to churches I'd add the death of social organizations like elks, shriners, etc. Most of the good things these groups worked on are now seen by most as the responsibility of the government, which changes a lot of the dynamics.
_red 7y ago
As Harvard Professor Robert Putnam has pointed out: One of the effects of "increased diversity" is that there is a shift away from being a high-trust society. This causes, among other things, increased isolation and social disengagement. No doubt this isn't the only cause of pubs / bars closing, but it is a real measurable effect.
- icxa 7y ago
  My spitball opinion on that: we had diversity in America during the beginning of the industrial age that we heavily relied on for it's host of benefits, innovation primarily as well, but it didn't create the conflict (conflict theory terms) we see today because you were expected to integrate (conform) to be "American", which was a shared set of values and beliefs. America is still today one of the few geopolitical distinctions today that is solely demarcated as such by subscribing to a fundamental set of beliefs, rather than by blood as you have in most other countries in the world, especially in Europe. America is chiefly an idea, and by believing in that ideal, you gain the entire inheritance. This is something that is continually being eroded unfortunately, especially as we continually descend into more and more hyphenated subgroups of Americans, rather than just focusing on what makes us simply Americans, but something we should still strive for. (And I know you will get downvoted for posting about Robert Putnam research here because it appears to come off as a knock against diversity, even though Putnam himself said his research actually affirms the benefits of diversity)
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    Did Putnam specify the benefits?
    - icxa 7y ago
      " In the short term, he writes, there are clearly challenges, but over the long haul, he argues that diversity has a range of benefits for a society, and that the fragmentation and distrust can be overcome. It’s not an easy process, but in the end it’s “well worth the effort.” Putnam cites the integration of institutions like the U.S. Army as proof that diversity can work." https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-says-his-research-was-twisted/30357 https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-say... The point about the army is a particularly interesting one because they certainly are experts in integration and conformity, which hits back to my point in my previous comment as well.
bscphil 7y ago
My experience is that some churches are dying and some are growing. Unfortunately it's the ones I (and possibly you) would go to that are dying. Churchgoers are moving from mainline Christian denominations to more extreme evangelical or fundamentalist denominations. Evangelicals have become a majority of all Protestants [1]. Generalizing, these churches are stridently political in character, and often have social beliefs unacceptable to most of us. What we are seeing is many churches having reoriented themselves with respect to society: while before they were community meeting places in areas with nearly identical backgrounds and beliefs, now they define themselves in opposition to a diverse community and the changes it brings. In other words, it's not just that people have abandoned churches (secularization); it's also that many churches have self-consciously abandoned their roles as third places. [1] https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-1-the-changing-religious-composition-of-the-u-s/ https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-1-the-changing-r...
- mwfunk 7y ago
  This is such a sad phenomena and it's really accelerated in recent decades. What it means to be an American Evangelical has also radically changed over the years- for example, 100 years ago, the Southern Baptists were very vocal, activists even about preserving the bounds between Church and State. It was the official Southern Baptist position that not intermingling Church and State was critical to a functioning society, that when the two intermingle it inevitably corrupts both (which has been shown to be true, if the last 50 years have taught us anything). I bet many/most Southern Baptists today believe the opposite, and might not even believe that their denomination has done a 180 on this in recent years. In America at least, the trend has had the effect of minimizing the positive effects of religion on society, while maximizing the irrational, corrosive, and divisive effects. It's like the worst of all possible worlds. I blame politicians for catering to the worst instincts of religiously-motivated voters, and I blame religious voters for allowing their politics to corrupt their own spirituality. As a result, you see these Evangelical megachurch pastors preaching beliefs that are in blatant, obvious, direct opposition to the clearest and least ambiguous words of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount, for example. His observations on the Pharisees have never been more relevant.

crazygringo 7y ago

I honestly can't understand that at all. The "third place" has exploded and has never been more vibrant in the history of mankind, at least if you live in a city. Yoga classes, coffee shops, CrossFit, meetups, hiking groups, rock climbing, dance parties, marathons, evening painting classes where they serve wine, improv comedy shows, improv comedy classes, cooking classes, language classes, indie band shows of every type. Meditation, Buddhism, any kind of spirituality you might be into. Literally everything just a few clicks away on Google. You don't need to "know somebody", you can just go. Go a few times in a row and make conversation with people, and suddenly you've got community and new friends. Modern culture is an incredible smorgasboard where you can connect with every type of person through pretty much every type of activity known to man, whether athletic or artistic or spiritual or educational or all four. The bar was a kind of lowest-common-denominator location that often came with a drinking problem. Bars still exist, but today's alternatives are almost infinitely more varied and vibrant.

rexgallorum2 7y ago
That is true, but those are all interest based activities, things you do at 7pm on a Tuesday night, between getting off work and passing out while watching netflix. They aren't places where one can go to simply 'be', or to mingle with strangers. In Ireland for example, people would do those things and then go to the pub afterwards. Think of the Prancing Pony in the Lord of the Rings...a place where locals and travellers can mix and mingle and converse as much or as little as they please.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- criddell 7y ago
  > In Ireland for example, people would do those things and then go to the pub afterwards. I love the idea of a hot yoga session before heading to the pub for a couple of pints and some darts.
  - i386 7y ago
    Nothing as beautiful as cans with the lads and a couple of smokes too
    - rexgallorum2 7y ago
      :)
- mushufasa 7y ago
  This also sounds like the Ethiopian concept of coffee as a 'social house.' There's a place in the ethiopian neighborhood of DC that really practices this: https://www.kaldissocial.com/#new-page-1-section https://www.kaldissocial.com/#new-page-1-section
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  There is a fair bit of social pressure to drink in a bar though, it isn't exactly a place to just "be" in that regard.
bluedino 7y ago
>> Yoga classes, coffee shops, CrossFit, meetups, hiking groups, rock climbing, dance parties, marathons, evening painting classes where they serve wine, improv comedy shows, improv comedy classes, cooking classes, language classes, indie band shows of every type. Your white upper-middle class is showing
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't do this here. Even if you're right, it only adds poison to the commons.
rexpop 7y ago
None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities, and non-participatory performances. Not the same thing. They don't facilitate the same social or psychological functions as the relaxed, inexpensive, unstimulating and improvisational third-place.
- tim58 7y ago
  > None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities Many meditation and Buddhist activities are free or donation only. It's a common attribute that Buddhist retreats are completely free before and during the event, and only after you receive a piece of mail soliciting a donation. There _are_ more commercial meditation based activities but those are more lifestyle than spiritual.
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    What if you don’t believe in Buddhism or the particular meditation approach advocated? I agree that these sorts of events are not quite third places as a modern society of people of varied or no religious belief would expect. Also, due to movements like the Hare Krishnas advertising free events (often without specifying that it was the Hare Krishnas or whatever other sect organizing it) for the sake of bait-and-switch recruitment, people are understandably suspicious of any vague "spirituality" or "meditation" event where free entrance is advertised.
  - rexpop 7y ago
    You're both a) cherry-picking and b) overlooking the second half of my post.
brailsafe 7y ago
I agree with the others. While these may be options, they're all activities or events, not just a default place to hangout or be and where you're not there because one specific thing ties you together
Mediterraneo10 7y ago
> coffee shops Central Europe is losing the vibrant cafe culture it used to have, where people could sit together for hours and chat. Cafes today often blast loud pop music and send staff around more frequently to pester clients who seem to have finished their drinks, as owners believe this will prevent people from loitering. Instead, customers will quickly drink what they ordered and then get out, freeing the table for other customers. Perhaps in the USA the situation is different, but I live in a city with a tradition of quiet, intellectual cafes that goes back centuries, and was still like that a decade ago, but now I am hard pressed to find a single place that would be pleasant to socialize even with my friends in, let alone mingle with other regulars and strike up conversations with strangers.
- freehunter 7y ago
  Speaking here in the US, if you don't have a local coffee shop your neighborhood is probably not very vibrant, and lots of business happens in these local coffee shops. I host meetings at my local coffee shop all the time and see others doing the same thing. Even if all you have is Starbucks, there's still tons of meetings that happen at Starbucks and you're not likely to be hassled to leave. I'm much more likely to be pushed out the door at my local brewery or bar than I am at a coffee shop. If I had to guess it's because coffee tends to be a grab-and-go whereas beer cannot be served in a to-go cup so it has to be served and consumed inside the building with few alternatives if the seats are all full.
  - pixelrevision 7y ago
    Huh. My experience in nyc is that most of the coffeeshops tend to have hordes of people on laptops with earbuds on ignoring each other.
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      I think that New York City may be particularly bad in this regard. I remember when I lived in Saratoga Springs (a small city upstate), I could strike up conversations with strangers on the bus or train, and did all the time. Here in NYC, that's nearly unthinkable—only crazy people do it.
sneak 7y ago
I believe that the activity-based stuff you list is quite orthogonal to the concept of “the third place”.
pas 7y ago
True, but ... this explosion and this embarrassment of riches also led to people not engaging with a "community of some interest group" (so a subculture), but just paying for it. In and out in a few hours. To acquire friends one has to get to know people, and also people have to know one. It takes time to open up. I'm not saying bars were this magical place. No. Bars were the place people who for some reason spent enough time together to get to a bar went to.
jvagner 7y ago
I work out a lot. I’ve tried taking classes or joining the lifting team. But I don’t like working up out on a schedule. I get to the gym when I get to the gym. I don’t drink anymore but when I lived in NYC I went to the neighborhood bar and was part of a loose knit group of people who went there too. Classes, schedules and fees don’t point to the same thing. I do miss the mid 90s indie coffeeshop scene. I think some of these things may die off when people our age have kids. I didn’t have a kid when I did these things before. Maybe schedules and fees facilitate third place activities when you’re negotiating time with your co-parent. Now my kid is mid-teens and I have my free nights for third place things. But I’m not likely to attend a thing at a time and pay a fee. I’ll go for a trail run, with my partner or by myself.

rexgallorum2 7y ago

Any good neighbourhood needs a little public green space, and a few pubs and coffee houses. To hell with zoning or other rules that separate living spaces from public drinking spaces.

rexgallorum2 7y ago
(The green spaces are for drinking too. Possibly with guitars and snacks.)

jefftk 7y ago

In my life contra dancing fills this role. It's a place I can go to socialize with friends and strangers, dance, and listen to live music. There are dances all over the country, and when I'm traveling for work I often look up the local dance (https://trycontra.com https://trycontra.com) and drop in. Wherever I am I have a good time.

AdrianB1 7y ago
It is not the same. I used to go dancing for years, but most people were going to a bar after that to socialize. Some dance events are a combination of both (the milonga for Argentine tango), but I haven't seen one to replace it.
- notnarb 7y ago
  I think a country bar/dance hall/saloon is unique in this regard when it comes to social dancing destinations. They are certainly not for everyone but I have yet to have found another type of social dancing venue that balances being a hangout spot and a place to dance. Line dancing in particular brings something to the table outside of couples dancing that gives those not interested in the potentially-unfamiliar social situation of dancing with someone else a reason to go. I think that especially helps to keep these communities going. Quick plug: I've been trying to catalog country venues (and their dances and songs) at https://dancedocket.com https://dancedocket.com
nunez 7y ago
highly depends on the person but i hate dancing with strangers and would never do this in contrast, i absolutely enjoy drinking tasty beer and cocktails with people i don't know

newnewpdro 7y ago

Cafes in my experience.

track_me_now 7y ago

Good point. I don't think many would bemoan the loss of a bar, but they should recognize that losing a place other than home or work could have dramatic and far reaching impact. In addition to churches I'd add the death of social organizations like elks, shriners, etc. Most of the good things these groups worked on are now seen by most as the responsibility of the government, which changes a lot of the dynamics.

_red 7y ago

As Harvard Professor Robert Putnam has pointed out: One of the effects of "increased diversity" is that there is a shift away from being a high-trust society. This causes, among other things, increased isolation and social disengagement. No doubt this isn't the only cause of pubs / bars closing, but it is a real measurable effect.

icxa 7y ago
My spitball opinion on that: we had diversity in America during the beginning of the industrial age that we heavily relied on for it's host of benefits, innovation primarily as well, but it didn't create the conflict (conflict theory terms) we see today because you were expected to integrate (conform) to be "American", which was a shared set of values and beliefs. America is still today one of the few geopolitical distinctions today that is solely demarcated as such by subscribing to a fundamental set of beliefs, rather than by blood as you have in most other countries in the world, especially in Europe. America is chiefly an idea, and by believing in that ideal, you gain the entire inheritance. This is something that is continually being eroded unfortunately, especially as we continually descend into more and more hyphenated subgroups of Americans, rather than just focusing on what makes us simply Americans, but something we should still strive for. (And I know you will get downvoted for posting about Robert Putnam research here because it appears to come off as a knock against diversity, even though Putnam himself said his research actually affirms the benefits of diversity)
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Did Putnam specify the benefits?
  - icxa 7y ago
    " In the short term, he writes, there are clearly challenges, but over the long haul, he argues that diversity has a range of benefits for a society, and that the fragmentation and distrust can be overcome. It’s not an easy process, but in the end it’s “well worth the effort.” Putnam cites the integration of institutions like the U.S. Army as proof that diversity can work." https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-says-his-research-was-twisted/30357 https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-say... The point about the army is a particularly interesting one because they certainly are experts in integration and conformity, which hits back to my point in my previous comment as well.

bscphil 7y ago

My experience is that some churches are dying and some are growing. Unfortunately it's the ones I (and possibly you) would go to that are dying. Churchgoers are moving from mainline Christian denominations to more extreme evangelical or fundamentalist denominations. Evangelicals have become a majority of all Protestants [1]. Generalizing, these churches are stridently political in character, and often have social beliefs unacceptable to most of us. What we are seeing is many churches having reoriented themselves with respect to society: while before they were community meeting places in areas with nearly identical backgrounds and beliefs, now they define themselves in opposition to a diverse community and the changes it brings. In other words, it's not just that people have abandoned churches (secularization); it's also that many churches have self-consciously abandoned their roles as third places. [1] https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-1-the-changing-religious-composition-of-the-u-s/ https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-1-the-changing-r...

mwfunk 7y ago
This is such a sad phenomena and it's really accelerated in recent decades. What it means to be an American Evangelical has also radically changed over the years- for example, 100 years ago, the Southern Baptists were very vocal, activists even about preserving the bounds between Church and State. It was the official Southern Baptist position that not intermingling Church and State was critical to a functioning society, that when the two intermingle it inevitably corrupts both (which has been shown to be true, if the last 50 years have taught us anything). I bet many/most Southern Baptists today believe the opposite, and might not even believe that their denomination has done a 180 on this in recent years. In America at least, the trend has had the effect of minimizing the positive effects of religion on society, while maximizing the irrational, corrosive, and divisive effects. It's like the worst of all possible worlds. I blame politicians for catering to the worst instincts of religiously-motivated voters, and I blame religious voters for allowing their politics to corrupt their own spirituality. As a result, you see these Evangelical megachurch pastors preaching beliefs that are in blatant, obvious, direct opposition to the clearest and least ambiguous words of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount, for example. His observations on the Pharisees have never been more relevant.