8 ms·

Attention Shoppers: Internet Is Open (1994)

32 points by marban 7y ago

marban 7y ago
Here is to 25 years of Cyberspace shopping!
spunker540 7y ago
"Even if the N.S.A. was listening in, they couldn't get his credit card number" -- what a prescient quote for 1994, pre-Patriot Act, pre-Snowden.
- marban 7y ago
  TBH, I didn't even know they existed back then.
- icebraining 7y ago
  Not really; it has been publicly known since the late 80s, with reports like Duncan Campbell's Somebody's Listening (1988)[1]. In 2001, even the European Parliament was telling people to use encryption to avoid the widespread NSA private and economic espionage. Snowden gave us the details, but it's been generally known for a long time. [1] http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/newstatesman-1988/They%27ve%20got%20it%20taped.pdf http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/n...
- croon 7y ago
  I remember ECHELON [1] being the talk pre-Snowden, in the 90s and prior. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
- Terretta 7y ago
  Here are a couple examples from 1972 and 1988. Since the 70s journalism has surfaced the idea about “The Concealment of the State”, pieces touching on covert and surveillance aspects of the national security establishment in developed countries, how the deep state draws power from the national security and intelligence communities, and the idea of “mass secrecy” as a source of power. I can’t find the reference right now, but seems like this idea was even showing up in Tom Clancy’s popular page turners. Examples on listening to communications: Q. So far we've been talking about various kinds of sophisticated electronic intelligence gathering. What about tapping of ground communications? A. Of course all trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific telephone calls to or from the U.S. are tapped. Every conversation, personal, commercial, whatever, is automatically intercepted and recorded on tapes. Most of them no one ever listens to, and after being held available for a few weeks, are erased. They'll run a random sort through all the tapes, listening to a certain number to determine if there is anything in them of interest to our government worth holding on to and transcribing. Also, certain telephone conversations are routinely listened to as soon as possible. These will be the ones that are made by people doing an inordinate amount of calling overseas, or are otherwise tapped for special interest. — David Horowitz (August 1972). "U.S. Electronic Espionage: A Memoir". Ramparts, 11. // via http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-elint.htm http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-elint.htm Somebody's listening . . . and they don't give a damn about personal privacy or commercial confidence. Project 415 is a top-secret new global surveillance system. It can tap into a billion calls a year in the UK alone. They've got it taped In the booming surveillance industry they spy on whom they wish, when they wish, protected by barriers of secrecy, fortified by billions of pounds worth of high, high technology. Duncan Campbell reports from the United States on the secret Anglo-American plan for a global electronic spy system for the 21st century capable of listening in to most of us most of the time. — Duncan Campbell (12 August 1988). “Somebody’s Listening”. New Statesman, Cover pp. 10 - 12 // via http://cryptome.org/jya/echelon-dc.htm http://cryptome.org/jya/echelon-dc.htm
- dankohn1 7y ago
  FYI, I'm not remotely as confident about that claim as I was 25 years ago. (I'm the one quoted.) Specifically, I use Signal today and suspect that it's secure against mass surveillance. But if I were ever targeted individually by a nation-state actor, I presume it would be game over.
habitue 7y ago
For anyone curious, I looked up Daniel Kohn, the founder of the company that sold the CD. Turns out now he's the president of the CNCF!
- dankohn1 7y ago
  And a regular HN poster. Feel free to ask me anything.
spudwaffle 7y ago
> Digital cash, Mr. Zimmermann explained, is "a combination of cryptographic protocols that behave the way real dollars behave but are untraceable." > In other words, they are packets of worth that have value in cyberspace, the same way dollars have value in the real world, except that they have the properties of anonymity, privacy and untraceability. Many details remain to be worked out, Mr. Zimmermann said. Very cool how people were predicting cryptocurrencies from the beginning!
- nineteen999 7y ago
  > Many details remain to be worked out, Mr. Zimmermann said. And surprising how little some things have changed in 25 years as well.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Cool, yes. But "predicting" isn't how I see it. We wanted anonymous, private and untraceable digital cash. Many people worked on it. There were several ~centralized electronic currencies, and they all got taken down, sooner or later. Because of FinCEN "know your customer" requirements. E-gold lasted until 2009. Liberty Reserve lasted until 2013, and the founder went to jail. Pecunix still sort of exists in a weird stunted way. So anyway, Bitcoin was developed as a non-centralized electronic currency. Which would be far harder to take down.
  - Nursie 7y ago
    E-Gold and Liberty Reserve were, like BTC is now, rife with scams, Ponzis and other fraud. It's not really a surprise that the Quadriga CX founders have history in those arenas.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Last I checked, dollars are "rife with scams, Ponzis and other fraud". Bernie Madoff, for example.
      - Nursie 7y ago
pyreal 7y ago
Here's an internet store I wrote around that time (1994-1996): https://github.com/steveclarke/vintage-online-store https://github.com/steveclarke/vintage-online-store I wrote it just on a whim for the computer sales company I was working for at the time. I had the store fully working and taking orders -- it just needed to be kept up to date. The feedback I got back from the owners at the time was, "Why are you making this? It's just a fad. Nobody will ever put their credit card number into the Internet." So the online store died on the vine.

32 points by marban 7y ago

Here is to 25 years of Cyberspace shopping!

"Even if the N.S.A. was listening in, they couldn't get his credit card number" -- what a prescient quote for 1994, pre-Patriot Act, pre-Snowden.

marban 7y ago
TBH, I didn't even know they existed back then.
icebraining 7y ago
Not really; it has been publicly known since the late 80s, with reports like Duncan Campbell's Somebody's Listening (1988)[1]. In 2001, even the European Parliament was telling people to use encryption to avoid the widespread NSA private and economic espionage. Snowden gave us the details, but it's been generally known for a long time. [1] http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/newstatesman-1988/They%27ve%20got%20it%20taped.pdf http://www.duncancampbell.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/n...
croon 7y ago
I remember ECHELON [1] being the talk pre-Snowden, in the 90s and prior. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
Terretta 7y ago
Here are a couple examples from 1972 and 1988. Since the 70s journalism has surfaced the idea about “The Concealment of the State”, pieces touching on covert and surveillance aspects of the national security establishment in developed countries, how the deep state draws power from the national security and intelligence communities, and the idea of “mass secrecy” as a source of power. I can’t find the reference right now, but seems like this idea was even showing up in Tom Clancy’s popular page turners. Examples on listening to communications: Q. So far we've been talking about various kinds of sophisticated electronic intelligence gathering. What about tapping of ground communications? A. Of course all trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific telephone calls to or from the U.S. are tapped. Every conversation, personal, commercial, whatever, is automatically intercepted and recorded on tapes. Most of them no one ever listens to, and after being held available for a few weeks, are erased. They'll run a random sort through all the tapes, listening to a certain number to determine if there is anything in them of interest to our government worth holding on to and transcribing. Also, certain telephone conversations are routinely listened to as soon as possible. These will be the ones that are made by people doing an inordinate amount of calling overseas, or are otherwise tapped for special interest. — David Horowitz (August 1972). "U.S. Electronic Espionage: A Memoir". Ramparts, 11. // via http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-elint.htm http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-elint.htm Somebody's listening . . . and they don't give a damn about personal privacy or commercial confidence. Project 415 is a top-secret new global surveillance system. It can tap into a billion calls a year in the UK alone. They've got it taped In the booming surveillance industry they spy on whom they wish, when they wish, protected by barriers of secrecy, fortified by billions of pounds worth of high, high technology. Duncan Campbell reports from the United States on the secret Anglo-American plan for a global electronic spy system for the 21st century capable of listening in to most of us most of the time. — Duncan Campbell (12 August 1988). “Somebody’s Listening”. New Statesman, Cover pp. 10 - 12 // via http://cryptome.org/jya/echelon-dc.htm http://cryptome.org/jya/echelon-dc.htm
dankohn1 7y ago
FYI, I'm not remotely as confident about that claim as I was 25 years ago. (I'm the one quoted.) Specifically, I use Signal today and suspect that it's secure against mass surveillance. But if I were ever targeted individually by a nation-state actor, I presume it would be game over.

habitue 7y ago

For anyone curious, I looked up Daniel Kohn, the founder of the company that sold the CD. Turns out now he's the president of the CNCF!

dankohn1 7y ago
And a regular HN poster. Feel free to ask me anything.

spudwaffle 7y ago

> Digital cash, Mr. Zimmermann explained, is "a combination of cryptographic protocols that behave the way real dollars behave but are untraceable." > In other words, they are packets of worth that have value in cyberspace, the same way dollars have value in the real world, except that they have the properties of anonymity, privacy and untraceability. Many details remain to be worked out, Mr. Zimmermann said. Very cool how people were predicting cryptocurrencies from the beginning!

nineteen999 7y ago
> Many details remain to be worked out, Mr. Zimmermann said. And surprising how little some things have changed in 25 years as well.
mirimir 7y ago
Cool, yes. But "predicting" isn't how I see it. We wanted anonymous, private and untraceable digital cash. Many people worked on it. There were several ~centralized electronic currencies, and they all got taken down, sooner or later. Because of FinCEN "know your customer" requirements. E-gold lasted until 2009. Liberty Reserve lasted until 2013, and the founder went to jail. Pecunix still sort of exists in a weird stunted way. So anyway, Bitcoin was developed as a non-centralized electronic currency. Which would be far harder to take down.
- Nursie 7y ago
  E-Gold and Liberty Reserve were, like BTC is now, rife with scams, Ponzis and other fraud. It's not really a surprise that the Quadriga CX founders have history in those arenas.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Last I checked, dollars are "rife with scams, Ponzis and other fraud". Bernie Madoff, for example.
    - Nursie 7y ago

pyreal 7y ago

Here's an internet store I wrote around that time (1994-1996): https://github.com/steveclarke/vintage-online-store https://github.com/steveclarke/vintage-online-store I wrote it just on a whim for the computer sales company I was working for at the time. I had the store fully working and taking orders -- it just needed to be kept up to date. The feedback I got back from the owners at the time was, "Why are you making this? It's just a fad. Nobody will ever put their credit card number into the Internet." So the online store died on the vine.