5 ms·

I think the bulwark against it is a society being clear on what its moral axioms are. Like in the US, "all men are created equal", where we understand "men" to

I think the bulwark against it is a society being clear on what its moral axioms are. Like in the US, "all men are created equal", where we understand "men" to mean "people". There are certainly forces in the US that do not want to accept this as true, but the existence of the stated value and national identity helps to defend it. Same with the bill of rights. And on a personal level, identifying ones own values and principles explicitly and reviewing them periodically can help guide one's path as society changes.

nabla9 7y ago
Smoking in the public places was just few decades ago, very common and it seemed like impossible to move. Now even thinking about going back is absurd idea. Today people defend 'basically harmless stuff like: 1. Force physical mutilation of children crazy reasons is OK if there is not much physical harm. Circumcision of boys is seen as OK in countries where it's common and normal. Others can see it as crazy cultural thing. 2. Physical punishment of children is OK because I turned out just fine.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  > Today people defend 'basically harmless stuff like: I'm sure there are people (where n > 1) in the world who defend that, but here in The Netherlands this is not OK except for Jewish boy circumcision. Which is in a different league than the removal of the clitoris. Physical punishment of children went from 'normal' before 1970 to 'not acceptable' throughout 1980 and 1990. It is now 'very much not acceptable'. In fact, I'd argue this one, like smoking, fits the 'creeping normality' definition although keep in mind I talk about The Netherlands only. I do not know how this developed throughout the rest of the world.
  - nabla9 7y ago
    I'm speaking to HN audience that is not similar to north European audience. https://www.brookings.edu/research/hitting-kids-american-parenting-and-physical-punishment/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/hitting-kids-american-par... > More than 70% of Americans agreed in 2012 that, “it is sometimes necessary to discipline a child with a good, hard spanking.” I was talking about boy circumcision and why in a different league than the removal of the clitoris. Infant body modification for religious reasons is barbaric custom even if it is mostly harmless. You would only few decades of banning boy circumcision and Jews would recognize it as a normal and new generations would think it was silly stupid practice not deeply related to Jewish identity after all.
  - Thiez 7y ago
    Not all female circumcision involves removing the clitorus. It varies, and the least harmful forms involve only a symbolic pin prick. While I strongly oppose all forms of circumcision on babies and children (unless a good medical reason is involved), I think the lightest form of female circumcision is essentiallu much less barbaric than male circumcision. If people practicing female circumcision could be convinced to switch to the lighter forms (perhaps through creeping normality?) that would already be a great improvement, and a good step towards eventually stopping the practice completely. It would be more consistent if male circumcision was treated with the same condemnation that all forms of female circumcision (or 'FGM') seem to receive. Currently the western world criticising female circumcision seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
- jchanimal 7y ago
  Driving cars in the city is the new smoking. Our grandkids will look at this time as barbaric.
  - lixtra 7y ago
    Sharing your location with the state in real time all time seemed barbaric a decade ago while it will be normal for our kids.
  - firethief 7y ago
    *Internal combustion cars. Electric cars enable us to avoid polluting the cities by burning coal somewhere unimportant.
    - jchanimal 7y ago
      My take is it’s more about killing pedestrians than polluting.
      - firethief 7y ago
        Oh. I didn't expect that, probably because in the US car-pedestrian accidents kill 6,000 people a year [1] and air pollution kills 6,000,000 [2] 1. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/28/589453431/pedestrian-fatalities-remain-at-25-year-high-for-second-year-in-a-row https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/28/589453431... 2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/04/18/air-pollution-contributed-to-more-than-6-million-deaths-in-2016-infographic https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/04/18/air-po...
        jchanimal 7y ago
        But way more than 6000 kids a year don’t play outside because of our artificially created apex predators.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

nabla9 7y ago

Smoking in the public places was just few decades ago, very common and it seemed like impossible to move. Now even thinking about going back is absurd idea. Today people defend 'basically harmless stuff like: 1. Force physical mutilation of children crazy reasons is OK if there is not much physical harm. Circumcision of boys is seen as OK in countries where it's common and normal. Others can see it as crazy cultural thing. 2. Physical punishment of children is OK because I turned out just fine.

Fnoord 7y ago
> Today people defend 'basically harmless stuff like: I'm sure there are people (where n > 1) in the world who defend that, but here in The Netherlands this is not OK except for Jewish boy circumcision. Which is in a different league than the removal of the clitoris. Physical punishment of children went from 'normal' before 1970 to 'not acceptable' throughout 1980 and 1990. It is now 'very much not acceptable'. In fact, I'd argue this one, like smoking, fits the 'creeping normality' definition although keep in mind I talk about The Netherlands only. I do not know how this developed throughout the rest of the world.
- nabla9 7y ago
  I'm speaking to HN audience that is not similar to north European audience. https://www.brookings.edu/research/hitting-kids-american-parenting-and-physical-punishment/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/hitting-kids-american-par... > More than 70% of Americans agreed in 2012 that, “it is sometimes necessary to discipline a child with a good, hard spanking.” I was talking about boy circumcision and why in a different league than the removal of the clitoris. Infant body modification for religious reasons is barbaric custom even if it is mostly harmless. You would only few decades of banning boy circumcision and Jews would recognize it as a normal and new generations would think it was silly stupid practice not deeply related to Jewish identity after all.
- Thiez 7y ago
  Not all female circumcision involves removing the clitorus. It varies, and the least harmful forms involve only a symbolic pin prick. While I strongly oppose all forms of circumcision on babies and children (unless a good medical reason is involved), I think the lightest form of female circumcision is essentiallu much less barbaric than male circumcision. If people practicing female circumcision could be convinced to switch to the lighter forms (perhaps through creeping normality?) that would already be a great improvement, and a good step towards eventually stopping the practice completely. It would be more consistent if male circumcision was treated with the same condemnation that all forms of female circumcision (or 'FGM') seem to receive. Currently the western world criticising female circumcision seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
jchanimal 7y ago
Driving cars in the city is the new smoking. Our grandkids will look at this time as barbaric.
- lixtra 7y ago
  Sharing your location with the state in real time all time seemed barbaric a decade ago while it will be normal for our kids.
- firethief 7y ago
  *Internal combustion cars. Electric cars enable us to avoid polluting the cities by burning coal somewhere unimportant.
  - jchanimal 7y ago
    My take is it’s more about killing pedestrians than polluting.
    - firethief 7y ago
      Oh. I didn't expect that, probably because in the US car-pedestrian accidents kill 6,000 people a year [1] and air pollution kills 6,000,000 [2] 1. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/28/589453431/pedestrian-fatalities-remain-at-25-year-high-for-second-year-in-a-row https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/28/589453431... 2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/04/18/air-pollution-contributed-to-more-than-6-million-deaths-in-2016-infographic https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/04/18/air-po...
      - jchanimal 7y ago
        But way more than 6000 kids a year don’t play outside because of our artificially created apex predators.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]