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I'm afraid that anyone qualified to read this article was not informed by it. And anyone informed by it was not qualified to read it. > Modern theorizations of

I'm afraid that anyone qualified to read this article was not informed by it. And anyone informed by it was not qualified to read it. > Modern theorizations of sacrifice focus on animal victims, treating the sacrifice of vegetal substances, if they are considered at all, as an afterthought or simply setting vegetal offerings as a second, lesser ritual, ‘a substitution or a pale imitation’. This is a silly claim.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
I was confused by the assumption that modern conceptions of sacrifice view it in one of two ways: as an exercise of violence for its own sake (??), or as a communal meal. My first association with the concept of sacrifice is an offering or a trade: You give something to a spirit or god, and the spirit or god hopefully gives something back to you.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  That is a very modern reinterpretation. Trade was a practice of more-or-less equals. One doesn't trade with gods, much as one doesn't trade with parents. One hopes to attract their favorable attention, and fears their ire or neglect.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    Or, in older words: "Holy Athena," she cried, "protectress of our city, mighty goddess, break the spear of Diomedes and lay him low before the Scaean gates. Do this, and we will sacrifice twelve heifers that have never yet known the goad, in your temple, if you will have pity upon the town, and on the wives and little ones of the Trojans." Thus she prayed, but Pallas Athena granted not her prayer. (Iliad 6.305-311) Direct offers to trade with the gods are common in classical mythology. (And, um, everywhere else, ancient or modern day, fiction or reality.) And I specified that a sacrifice was often just an offering. Trading is normal, but not required. > much as one doesn't trade with parents I mean, I guess I can agree with this. I take it you don't have kids?
    - romaaeterna 7y ago
      It was Socrates' atheistic critique of contemporary definitions of piety to call this "trade" or "ἐμπορικὴ" in Euthyphro 14e. And for an historical example, according to Xenophon [Xen. Anab. 3.2.10] the Athenians promised to sacrifice a goat to Artemis for every Persian killed at Marathon. This turned out to be 6,400 [Hdt. 6.117] and since they could not find enough goats, they instituted a yearly sacrifice of 500. Although only a wag like Socrates would call this a direct trade with the goddess.
ncmncm 7y ago
I think you would need to read the theorizations the author read to evaluate such a claim. Did you?
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  You would only need to do that if you read the sentence unnaturally as "There exist modern theorizations... which make such and such silly claim." The natural reading is "Modern theorizations characteristically... make such and such silly claim", and you don't need to read any one in particular to know that that's false. You just need to be familiar with the field.

thaumasiotes 7y ago

I was confused by the assumption that modern conceptions of sacrifice view it in one of two ways: as an exercise of violence for its own sake (??), or as a communal meal. My first association with the concept of sacrifice is an offering or a trade: You give something to a spirit or god, and the spirit or god hopefully gives something back to you.

ncmncm 7y ago
That is a very modern reinterpretation. Trade was a practice of more-or-less equals. One doesn't trade with gods, much as one doesn't trade with parents. One hopes to attract their favorable attention, and fears their ire or neglect.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  Or, in older words: "Holy Athena," she cried, "protectress of our city, mighty goddess, break the spear of Diomedes and lay him low before the Scaean gates. Do this, and we will sacrifice twelve heifers that have never yet known the goad, in your temple, if you will have pity upon the town, and on the wives and little ones of the Trojans." Thus she prayed, but Pallas Athena granted not her prayer. (Iliad 6.305-311) Direct offers to trade with the gods are common in classical mythology. (And, um, everywhere else, ancient or modern day, fiction or reality.) And I specified that a sacrifice was often just an offering. Trading is normal, but not required. > much as one doesn't trade with parents I mean, I guess I can agree with this. I take it you don't have kids?
  - romaaeterna 7y ago
    It was Socrates' atheistic critique of contemporary definitions of piety to call this "trade" or "ἐμπορικὴ" in Euthyphro 14e. And for an historical example, according to Xenophon [Xen. Anab. 3.2.10] the Athenians promised to sacrifice a goat to Artemis for every Persian killed at Marathon. This turned out to be 6,400 [Hdt. 6.117] and since they could not find enough goats, they instituted a yearly sacrifice of 500. Although only a wag like Socrates would call this a direct trade with the goddess.

ncmncm 7y ago

I think you would need to read the theorizations the author read to evaluate such a claim. Did you?

thaumasiotes 7y ago
You would only need to do that if you read the sentence unnaturally as "There exist modern theorizations... which make such and such silly claim." The natural reading is "Modern theorizations characteristically... make such and such silly claim", and you don't need to read any one in particular to know that that's false. You just need to be familiar with the field.