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I’ve been conducting a thought experiment. Imagine an Uber competitor that keeps drivers as full time employees and charges customers a price that allows it to

by maxaf 7y ago

I’ve been conducting a thought experiment. Imagine an Uber competitor that keeps drivers as full time employees and charges customers a price that allows it to pay the drivers a fair wage while slicing a modest profit margin off the top. Let’s discuss if something like this can work.

pavel_lishin 7y ago
Isn't that called a "car service"?
- maxaf 7y ago
  Perhaps, and there are plenty of those around. You're a fellow New Yorker, so you can readily conjure up the image: crummy Lincoln Town Car, leather seats that reek of stale tobacco, driver who talks on the phone while operating the vehicle, payment in cash (plus the tolls!), ordering process that involves speaking on the telephone... You know, the typical Brooklyn-based car service that dispatches cars via the radio from a storefront office. Uber's greatest contribution to the industry is the discovery that customers want a nice and smooth experience. Order using a smart phone, ride in a nice car (or perhaps a luxury one, or a larger one, or one with a child seat - you have options), and don't worry about payment and how much you owe in tolls. So, my pitch is that this convenience can probably be made to work as a business that doesn't abuse its employees and doesn't flood the roads with idle drivers. And also doesn't burn investor cash in order to conduct a price war. That's just bananas.
  - fucking_tragedy 7y ago
    It isn't 1982 anymore, taxi businesses and regions have apps now. Uber's value add is their pool of drivers' reach.
    - maxaf 7y ago
      I called out “Brooklyn car services” specifically because I still see such operations around town. I’m assuming they survive because there’s a group of users who are beyond the reach of new technology. I’m sure there are taxi services that offer conveniences similar to Uber, but none have enough name recognition for me to name even a single one off the top of my head. It’s possible that they need marketing help. It’s also possible that they aren’t looking to grow beyond whatever niche they serve now.
      - pavel_lishin 7y ago
        > I’m assuming they survive because there’s a group of users who are beyond the reach of new technology. This thought experiment is fun, but based on a lot of assumptions like these.
at-fates-hands 7y ago
As a public company with shareholders? Never. Once you go public, the shareholders by and large drive your you revenue decisions. Don’t hit your revenue goals? Stock tanks and you lose money. If Uber remained a private company, it’s possible. However if the goal is growth a massive IPO and cash grab, then your idea is antithetical to their goals. If they stayed private and did what you said and the goal was a modest profit and staying under the radar? Totally possible, but that has to be the goal at the outset and keeping employees will be hard if you have to keep up with cost of living adjustments, bonuses, etc to stay competitive with other industries competing for the same talent
- maxaf 7y ago
  The operative word in my blurb was "modest". Screw the shareholders; or rather, screw the public shareholders. I don't want their money because it comes with strings attached: demands that the business operate in an unethical and inefficient manner. Those types of shareholders are crazy can take their money to the casino for all I care. However, I'm sure there are other shareholders who might appreciate a "modest" dividend instead of a meteoric rise and trading potential. Where are those people? Aren't they the true smart money?
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Let’s discuss if something like this can work In New York, London and San Francisco? Sure. Anywhere else, there isn't enough density of destinations and density or wealth to make on-demand service competitive with hired cars. That said, the full-time requirement would also wipe out taxis in most cities. That turns a broken-down car for anyone but the wealthy into a potentially life-destroying experience. Weighed against the benefits around drinking and driving, et cetera, something between full-time employment and the current situation seems apt.
- maxaf 7y ago
  I'm not sure if someplace like Lancaster, PA (totally random example; it's a city I enjoy visiting) even needs a service like Uber. There is nothing in the value prop that demands that it be scaled up, down & out to fit everywhere in the world.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > I'm not sure if someplace like Lancaster, PA (totally random example; it's a city I enjoy visiting) even needs a service like Uber I dive in Dutch Springs (near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania) from time to time. Bus out of New York and Uber for the last mile. Without Uber, those are hotel, restaurant, equipment, facilities and bus expenses I would not be spending there.
    - pavel_lishin 7y ago
      You don't need an app for 50% of that use case. You need taxi drivers hanging out at the train station/bus depot.
  - hueving 7y ago
    People that want to stop drunk driving would disagree. Taxis are way to unreliable in the vast majority of US cities to be used as transport to/from a dinner with drinks.
    - 7y ago
listenallyall 7y ago
Scenario: It's raining. Twice as many people are requesting rides as normal. You have, as you described, only full-time employees. Go!
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Half of people get rides, the other half don’t, as happens with taxis today. It’s unreasonable to assume the physical world has the elasticity of technology resources.
  - listenallyall 7y ago
    That's a pretty terrible solution. Leaving good, willing-to-pay customers out in the rain? Not really customer-service oriented, are we?
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Customer obsession is worker abuse veiled as clever business practices. Workers > Customers > Shareholders (this is Costco’s stated priority by the way; they do very well and treat their employees well)
      - listenallyall 7y ago
        Try to get Costco to show up at your house 7 minutes from now.
        konschubert 7y ago
        That’s the point
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
recroad 7y ago
I believe that's what taxis are.
pg18 7y ago
Uber zero hour drivers are footing all the startup investment to provide their end of the service. They paid for the car and are paying for insurance, petrol and upkeep. On top of that Uber is saving on holiday/sick pay, employee contributions...but more importantly they can afford to hire any driver without worrying about firing them, and that could be the deal breaker on zero hours vs full time.

by maxaf 7y ago

pavel_lishin 7y ago

Isn't that called a "car service"?

maxaf 7y ago
Perhaps, and there are plenty of those around. You're a fellow New Yorker, so you can readily conjure up the image: crummy Lincoln Town Car, leather seats that reek of stale tobacco, driver who talks on the phone while operating the vehicle, payment in cash (plus the tolls!), ordering process that involves speaking on the telephone... You know, the typical Brooklyn-based car service that dispatches cars via the radio from a storefront office. Uber's greatest contribution to the industry is the discovery that customers want a nice and smooth experience. Order using a smart phone, ride in a nice car (or perhaps a luxury one, or a larger one, or one with a child seat - you have options), and don't worry about payment and how much you owe in tolls. So, my pitch is that this convenience can probably be made to work as a business that doesn't abuse its employees and doesn't flood the roads with idle drivers. And also doesn't burn investor cash in order to conduct a price war. That's just bananas.
- fucking_tragedy 7y ago
  It isn't 1982 anymore, taxi businesses and regions have apps now. Uber's value add is their pool of drivers' reach.
  - maxaf 7y ago
    I called out “Brooklyn car services” specifically because I still see such operations around town. I’m assuming they survive because there’s a group of users who are beyond the reach of new technology. I’m sure there are taxi services that offer conveniences similar to Uber, but none have enough name recognition for me to name even a single one off the top of my head. It’s possible that they need marketing help. It’s also possible that they aren’t looking to grow beyond whatever niche they serve now.
    - pavel_lishin 7y ago
      > I’m assuming they survive because there’s a group of users who are beyond the reach of new technology. This thought experiment is fun, but based on a lot of assumptions like these.

at-fates-hands 7y ago

As a public company with shareholders? Never. Once you go public, the shareholders by and large drive your you revenue decisions. Don’t hit your revenue goals? Stock tanks and you lose money. If Uber remained a private company, it’s possible. However if the goal is growth a massive IPO and cash grab, then your idea is antithetical to their goals. If they stayed private and did what you said and the goal was a modest profit and staying under the radar? Totally possible, but that has to be the goal at the outset and keeping employees will be hard if you have to keep up with cost of living adjustments, bonuses, etc to stay competitive with other industries competing for the same talent

maxaf 7y ago
The operative word in my blurb was "modest". Screw the shareholders; or rather, screw the public shareholders. I don't want their money because it comes with strings attached: demands that the business operate in an unethical and inefficient manner. Those types of shareholders are crazy can take their money to the casino for all I care. However, I'm sure there are other shareholders who might appreciate a "modest" dividend instead of a meteoric rise and trading potential. Where are those people? Aren't they the true smart money?

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> Let’s discuss if something like this can work In New York, London and San Francisco? Sure. Anywhere else, there isn't enough density of destinations and density or wealth to make on-demand service competitive with hired cars. That said, the full-time requirement would also wipe out taxis in most cities. That turns a broken-down car for anyone but the wealthy into a potentially life-destroying experience. Weighed against the benefits around drinking and driving, et cetera, something between full-time employment and the current situation seems apt.

maxaf 7y ago
I'm not sure if someplace like Lancaster, PA (totally random example; it's a city I enjoy visiting) even needs a service like Uber. There is nothing in the value prop that demands that it be scaled up, down & out to fit everywhere in the world.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > I'm not sure if someplace like Lancaster, PA (totally random example; it's a city I enjoy visiting) even needs a service like Uber I dive in Dutch Springs (near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania) from time to time. Bus out of New York and Uber for the last mile. Without Uber, those are hotel, restaurant, equipment, facilities and bus expenses I would not be spending there.
  - pavel_lishin 7y ago
    You don't need an app for 50% of that use case. You need taxi drivers hanging out at the train station/bus depot.
- hueving 7y ago
  People that want to stop drunk driving would disagree. Taxis are way to unreliable in the vast majority of US cities to be used as transport to/from a dinner with drinks.
  - 7y ago

listenallyall 7y ago

Scenario: It's raining. Twice as many people are requesting rides as normal. You have, as you described, only full-time employees. Go!

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Half of people get rides, the other half don’t, as happens with taxis today. It’s unreasonable to assume the physical world has the elasticity of technology resources.
- listenallyall 7y ago
  That's a pretty terrible solution. Leaving good, willing-to-pay customers out in the rain? Not really customer-service oriented, are we?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Customer obsession is worker abuse veiled as clever business practices. Workers > Customers > Shareholders (this is Costco’s stated priority by the way; they do very well and treat their employees well)
    - listenallyall 7y ago
      Try to get Costco to show up at your house 7 minutes from now.
      - konschubert 7y ago
        That’s the point
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]

recroad 7y ago

I believe that's what taxis are.

pg18 7y ago

Uber zero hour drivers are footing all the startup investment to provide their end of the service. They paid for the car and are paying for insurance, petrol and upkeep. On top of that Uber is saving on holiday/sick pay, employee contributions...but more importantly they can afford to hire any driver without worrying about firing them, and that could be the deal breaker on zero hours vs full time.