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> The sheer novelty of Dooley’s existence has proven irresistible to journalists—netting her gawking profiles in The New Yorker, Harper’s, and on National Publi

by deogeo 7y ago

> The sheer novelty of Dooley’s existence has proven irresistible to journalists—netting her gawking profiles in The New Yorker, Harper’s, and on National Public Radio—but that coverage has tended to obscure her extremism. Alongside advocating for sustainable energy, Dooley’s other pet issues are opposing amnesty for undocumented immigrants and increasing border security. Enforcing current immigration law, which would leave legal immigration into the US at the near-record 1.1 million per year, is now (presumably anti-immigrant) extremism? In almost any other country, this would be pro-immigrant extremism! To give a sense of comparison, 15.1% of the US population is foreign born, compared to 1.7% for Japan, and 0.1% for China.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
colechristensen 7y ago
China and Japan are both quite unfriendly to outsiders and ridiculous choices to compare with a country formed almost entirely of immigrants from the quite recent past.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  True, but still hardly any kind of extremism.
- Taniwha 7y ago
  In the past few years Japan has realised it's heading for demographic issues, it's opening up its immigration, I expect this to change quite quickly
  - hrktb 7y ago
    Did it become any easier to get a permanent visa for instance ? Japan has a long history of allowing a mass of low wage workers to come in with very bounded conditions (work limited to elderly care for instance) and it rarely translates to the worker staying in Japan ore than a few years. I don’t know if it’s what you were thinking about ?
    - Taniwha 7y ago
      Possibly for some https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/12/04/commentary/japan-commentary/new-immigration-policy-japan/#.XU_TkN9fihc https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/12/04/commentary/j...
- A2017U1 7y ago
  Japan is actually getting quite friendly lately, as a full-time remote worker have been investigating moving there for a while.
  - culturestate 7y ago
    The Japanese government is opening up, but it's gonna take some time for Japanese society to do the same. I can tell you from experience that integrating as a foreigner in Japan is...challenging.
    - A2017U1 7y ago
      Eh, such generalizations, I've lived and worked in very racist homogenous societies for years and still never struggled to find local friends. There's always cool folks to befriend, unless the insinuation here is no foreigner should move to Japan until a hundred million people change their ways? My opinion is _we_ all should change, and waiting for that to happen may take a while.
Taniwha 7y ago
For New Zealand it's 25%, Australia 22%, the UK 14%, France 9%, Germany 12%, Canada 22%, the Netherlands 19% Frankly 15% is about average for Western Countries
- jgmjgm 7y ago
  I think talking about averages is somewhat misleading. There has been a steep upward trend in the US and Europe. In the 1960s we'd be talking about less than 5% for the US and Europe so that is a big change. It's fair to say that there have been major policy changes over the past 50 years but it's misleading -- I'm not accusing you, just pointing out -- to say it's an average because that implies a steady state. I don't think USA/EU is at 15% yet. Europe trends just a little less than the USA (at least from 2016). I was just skimming this article today (below). I may have misinterpreted it so feel free to set the record straight. See Fig 1. Peri, G. 2016. Immigrants, Productivity, and Labor Markets. Journal of Economic Perspectives, 30(4): 3–30. Canada and Australia have had very high rates for a long time. Australia's is higher though. I'm not sure why Peri chose to combine the series because they are quite different but higher than the US. The AU/NZ (and Canada too I suppose) cases are interesting because they all have very overheated housing markets and prices are historically high relative to average wages. The USA went through a market correction and let the housing bubble burst but these markets did not. I've heard it argued that increased immigration to major housing markets is considered to be one way to keep the construction industry and house/rent prices sustainable. I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts or insight into this.
  - Taniwha 7y ago
    Maybe "average" was the wrong word, perhaps "unremarkable" is a better one. Before Trump the US was proud to describe itself as a nation of immigrants (I was one for 20 years) but Americans have this myth that they take in far more immigrants than anywhere else, it's just not true
    - jgmjgm 7y ago
      Well it does a pretty remarkable job. Recall too that the stats are foreign born as a percentage of the population (Peri, 2016 that I mentioned above). The USA is larger than all Canada, Australia, UK and NZ combined. So, let's not pretend that the US is not taking new comers at all. We're still in the ballpark of close to 50 million people. This compares to about 7 million in Canada.
lumberjack 7y ago
The current anti-brown sentiment and violence in the US is clearly extremism. You are trying to hide behind the tried and tested, "but it's the law" and you conveniently omit why the movement even exists (racism, brown people are icky) and how "justice" is being carried out (through inhumane methods that show no empathy and cause great harm to the victims).
i4t 7y ago
Except for a very small minority, aren't you all immigrants in the US? Or is there a rule for when immigrants can label themselves 'natives'?
- pmontra 7y ago
  This is how Europeans (and maybe not only us) commonly think about Americans, all immigrants from Europe first, from the rest of the world next. However probably it's not how they think about themselves. I'd like to hear from them.
- hollerith 7y ago
  American here. The way we use the word "immigrant" is that if you were born here and grew up here, you are not considered an immigrant.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    Unless you're not white, in which case you're called an "anchor baby" or "second-generation immigrant".
empath75 7y ago
Close to 100% of Americans are descended from people who were foreign born.
chupa 7y ago
And at the same time the author shits on someone for defending Palestinians. (((They))) are all the same.
pjc50 7y ago
> The sheer novelty of Dooley’s existence has proven irresistible to journalists This is the real problem. It doesn't matter if your ideas are good or even popular, if they're controversial enough the news media will magnify them for you.
southerntofu 7y ago
> Enforcing current immigration law (...) is now extremism? Well, of course. Advertising for armed psychopath (ICE/police or fascist militias) to terrorize, deport or kill other people in the name of stupidly enforcing the rules written on papers, that's fucking extremist. Without Godwin'ing my way around this issue, simply enforcing rules is what every fascist government is about. The Nazis in Germany in the 40's took this to a shocking level, ensuring it was against your material interests at all times not to follow rules, even when they seemed unjust. Giving everyone equal rights and opportunities is a supposedly founding principle of your "democracy". Your ancestors were welcomed on this land by its native people, before they turned against their hosts and slaughtered and enslaved them by the millions in the name of God and Capitalism. You need to realize every person crossing the border is an actual person. Not a robot/soldier sent to harm you, but a human being in search of a better life. Threatening and using force against peaceful people looking for a refuge, that's what psychopaths do. Hope you can take time to reflect on what you said.
- deogeo 7y ago
  > Giving everyone equal rights and opportunities is a supposedly founding principle of your "democracy". It's not 'my' democracy - I and my ancestors remained in Europe. And lets not engage in revisionist history - that founding principle was explicitly limited to "free White persons of good character" [1]. While the at once ineffective and cruel manner the US enforces its borders leaves much to be desired, that doesn't make the very concept of controlling immigration unjust. There are countries other besides the US to immigrate to. As for your comparison with Nazi Germany, perhaps it would have more weight if the US was incredibly restrictive with immigration (and, as always in these matters, ignoring that people weren't scrambling to get into Nazi Germany..) But as it stands, not only does the US have the largest rate of immigration in the world [2] (though not per-capita), but it also grants citizenship to anyone born there - a practice almost exclusive to the Americas [3]. I'm sorry if this reply seems harsh, but I find it utterly mind-boggling how you could compare the Nazi ethno-state, to a country where the majority ethnicity is voluntarily becoming a minority. They are going from 87% white in 1970 [4], to minority-white in 2044 [5]. That's in 74 years, a single lifespan, from overwhelming majority, to minority. Literally the opposite of what Nazi Germany was doing. But if this is comparable to ethnic cleansing, then what does that make almost all other countries? Some sort of ultra-nazis? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State... [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/us/white-americans-minority-population.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/us/white-americans-minori...

by deogeo 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

colechristensen 7y ago

China and Japan are both quite unfriendly to outsiders and ridiculous choices to compare with a country formed almost entirely of immigrants from the quite recent past.

lostmsu 7y ago
True, but still hardly any kind of extremism.
Taniwha 7y ago
In the past few years Japan has realised it's heading for demographic issues, it's opening up its immigration, I expect this to change quite quickly
- hrktb 7y ago
  Did it become any easier to get a permanent visa for instance ? Japan has a long history of allowing a mass of low wage workers to come in with very bounded conditions (work limited to elderly care for instance) and it rarely translates to the worker staying in Japan ore than a few years. I don’t know if it’s what you were thinking about ?
  - Taniwha 7y ago
    Possibly for some https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/12/04/commentary/japan-commentary/new-immigration-policy-japan/#.XU_TkN9fihc https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/12/04/commentary/j...
A2017U1 7y ago
Japan is actually getting quite friendly lately, as a full-time remote worker have been investigating moving there for a while.
- culturestate 7y ago
  The Japanese government is opening up, but it's gonna take some time for Japanese society to do the same. I can tell you from experience that integrating as a foreigner in Japan is...challenging.
  - A2017U1 7y ago
    Eh, such generalizations, I've lived and worked in very racist homogenous societies for years and still never struggled to find local friends. There's always cool folks to befriend, unless the insinuation here is no foreigner should move to Japan until a hundred million people change their ways? My opinion is _we_ all should change, and waiting for that to happen may take a while.

Taniwha 7y ago

For New Zealand it's 25%, Australia 22%, the UK 14%, France 9%, Germany 12%, Canada 22%, the Netherlands 19% Frankly 15% is about average for Western Countries

jgmjgm 7y ago
I think talking about averages is somewhat misleading. There has been a steep upward trend in the US and Europe. In the 1960s we'd be talking about less than 5% for the US and Europe so that is a big change. It's fair to say that there have been major policy changes over the past 50 years but it's misleading -- I'm not accusing you, just pointing out -- to say it's an average because that implies a steady state. I don't think USA/EU is at 15% yet. Europe trends just a little less than the USA (at least from 2016). I was just skimming this article today (below). I may have misinterpreted it so feel free to set the record straight. See Fig 1. Peri, G. 2016. Immigrants, Productivity, and Labor Markets. Journal of Economic Perspectives, 30(4): 3–30. Canada and Australia have had very high rates for a long time. Australia's is higher though. I'm not sure why Peri chose to combine the series because they are quite different but higher than the US. The AU/NZ (and Canada too I suppose) cases are interesting because they all have very overheated housing markets and prices are historically high relative to average wages. The USA went through a market correction and let the housing bubble burst but these markets did not. I've heard it argued that increased immigration to major housing markets is considered to be one way to keep the construction industry and house/rent prices sustainable. I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts or insight into this.
- Taniwha 7y ago
  Maybe "average" was the wrong word, perhaps "unremarkable" is a better one. Before Trump the US was proud to describe itself as a nation of immigrants (I was one for 20 years) but Americans have this myth that they take in far more immigrants than anywhere else, it's just not true
  - jgmjgm 7y ago
    Well it does a pretty remarkable job. Recall too that the stats are foreign born as a percentage of the population (Peri, 2016 that I mentioned above). The USA is larger than all Canada, Australia, UK and NZ combined. So, let's not pretend that the US is not taking new comers at all. We're still in the ballpark of close to 50 million people. This compares to about 7 million in Canada.

lumberjack 7y ago

The current anti-brown sentiment and violence in the US is clearly extremism. You are trying to hide behind the tried and tested, "but it's the law" and you conveniently omit why the movement even exists (racism, brown people are icky) and how "justice" is being carried out (through inhumane methods that show no empathy and cause great harm to the victims).

i4t 7y ago

Except for a very small minority, aren't you all immigrants in the US? Or is there a rule for when immigrants can label themselves 'natives'?

pmontra 7y ago
This is how Europeans (and maybe not only us) commonly think about Americans, all immigrants from Europe first, from the rest of the world next. However probably it's not how they think about themselves. I'd like to hear from them.
hollerith 7y ago
American here. The way we use the word "immigrant" is that if you were born here and grew up here, you are not considered an immigrant.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Unless you're not white, in which case you're called an "anchor baby" or "second-generation immigrant".

empath75 7y ago

Close to 100% of Americans are descended from people who were foreign born.

chupa 7y ago

And at the same time the author shits on someone for defending Palestinians. (((They))) are all the same.

pjc50 7y ago

> The sheer novelty of Dooley’s existence has proven irresistible to journalists This is the real problem. It doesn't matter if your ideas are good or even popular, if they're controversial enough the news media will magnify them for you.

southerntofu 7y ago

> Enforcing current immigration law (...) is now extremism? Well, of course. Advertising for armed psychopath (ICE/police or fascist militias) to terrorize, deport or kill other people in the name of stupidly enforcing the rules written on papers, that's fucking extremist. Without Godwin'ing my way around this issue, simply enforcing rules is what every fascist government is about. The Nazis in Germany in the 40's took this to a shocking level, ensuring it was against your material interests at all times not to follow rules, even when they seemed unjust. Giving everyone equal rights and opportunities is a supposedly founding principle of your "democracy". Your ancestors were welcomed on this land by its native people, before they turned against their hosts and slaughtered and enslaved them by the millions in the name of God and Capitalism. You need to realize every person crossing the border is an actual person. Not a robot/soldier sent to harm you, but a human being in search of a better life. Threatening and using force against peaceful people looking for a refuge, that's what psychopaths do. Hope you can take time to reflect on what you said.

deogeo 7y ago
> Giving everyone equal rights and opportunities is a supposedly founding principle of your "democracy". It's not 'my' democracy - I and my ancestors remained in Europe. And lets not engage in revisionist history - that founding principle was explicitly limited to "free White persons of good character" [1]. While the at once ineffective and cruel manner the US enforces its borders leaves much to be desired, that doesn't make the very concept of controlling immigration unjust. There are countries other besides the US to immigrate to. As for your comparison with Nazi Germany, perhaps it would have more weight if the US was incredibly restrictive with immigration (and, as always in these matters, ignoring that people weren't scrambling to get into Nazi Germany..) But as it stands, not only does the US have the largest rate of immigration in the world [2] (though not per-capita), but it also grants citizenship to anyone born there - a practice almost exclusive to the Americas [3]. I'm sorry if this reply seems harsh, but I find it utterly mind-boggling how you could compare the Nazi ethno-state, to a country where the majority ethnicity is voluntarily becoming a minority. They are going from 87% white in 1970 [4], to minority-white in 2044 [5]. That's in 74 years, a single lifespan, from overwhelming majority, to minority. Literally the opposite of what Nazi Germany was doing. But if this is comparable to ethnic cleansing, then what does that make almost all other countries? Some sort of ultra-nazis? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State... [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/us/white-americans-minority-population.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/us/white-americans-minori...