19 ms·

Definitely interested. I’ll check it out. Same boat, software engineer, my index and middle finger main knuckles on both hands inflame from the slightest use e

by hilyen 7y ago

Definitely interested. I’ll check it out. Same boat, software engineer, my index and middle finger main knuckles on both hands inflame from the slightest use even after years of therapy, doctors visits, etc. Also tendinitis in both elbows/arms. Note to those who are pushing off fixing your ergonomics, don’t. If you feel pain, numbing, tingling; do not ignore it. Listen to your body, don’t be like me.

elevenoh 7y ago
Had a similar issue. Then I went zerocarb and it faded fairly quickly.
- cheez 7y ago
  0 carb is the thing!
throwaway61292 7y ago
Can you elaborate on somethings you wish you had done. I get a bit of pain after half a day of coding, mostly my right pinky after hitting enter multiple times. Also get pain after certain activities like rolling food into a ball for my toddlers. I’ve joint pains here and there and the doctors have not yet found the cause and think it’s early onset of arthritis and have been told to take pain killers. I’m 39 by the way! Edit: added age
- LukeShu 7y ago
  I (25yo), also had pain in my right pinky and wrist, starting about 2 years ago. I spoke with a friend who had surgery for Carpel Tunnel Syndrome, and knew a lot more about this than me. What he told me: * Carpel Tunnel Syndrome affects the thumb/index-finger; pain in the pinky side of your hand could be caused by uthe ulnar tunnel or the cubital tunnel. * He does sets of 10 of these stretches every hour http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJw/lMj843282OE/s1600/CTS_BLOG.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJ... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8a/a4/2c/8aa42cc5c059cabf9aeb989914ca79ea.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8a/a4/2c/8aa4... * "One of the biggest things you can do is splint your wrist at night. This is one of the best wrist braces I've found: https://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Fitted-Wrist-Brace-Number/dp/B002NLGNW8/ https://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Fitted-Wrist-Brace-Number/dp/... " My experience: - I got a foot pedal, and put Alt, Ctrl, Shift, and Enter on it (and for a while pulled those keycaps off the right side of my keyboard, to force myself to learn to use the foot pedal). This allowed me to keep using a computer while I recovered, and allowed me to avoid stressing my pinky after I recovered. I wrote a bit about that on Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7remed/has_anybody_used_foot_pedals/dswhzkt/ https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7remed/has_anybody_u... . - The tendon gliding exercises were very helpful. The other stretches didn't seem to make much difference. While I was recovering, I tried to do them hourly. I now only do them if it's acting up. - I second his endorsement of those wrist braces. When using them, I wear them at night, and when typing if I can (I can use a desk keyboard with them, but can't use my laptop with them). While I was recovering, I used them all the time, now I only use them if it's acting up. - More recently, I got a Keyboardio Model 01, which puts the modifiers on the thumbs, not the pinkies. The foot pedal is entirely unnecessary with it; it puts much less strain on my hands. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJw/lMj84328 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJ... Nowadays, my wrist acts up maybe once a month or two.
- hilyen 7y ago
  (35 now, this started at 33) I wish I quit my job when it started to get worse instead of continuing while I was doing PT. I was doing 8-10 hour days of coding in a startup, my hands and arms got worse and I started doing 4 hour days 3 times a week and doing physical therapy, dr appointments etc. It continued to get worse. I had a lot of faith in my doctors figuring it out. They kept telling me I’d get better, it’d heal. Well, we’re years from then and none of that came to fruition. Not only that, the doctors misdiagnosed me multiple times, not able to come to an agreement on what it was. They still don’t. They call it RSI, arthritis, posterior interosseous nerve syndrome, and others that I cannot remember. My advice, look up an ergonomics diagram, compare your setup to a proper setup. Then make adjustments to areas you’re having trouble with. I use an ergodox ez keyboard w/ a 3m sort of joystick mouse (it doesn’t tilt though, you move it like a normal mouse). I can get away with 1 hour working, then icing, stretching then repeat. For about 4 hours total for a day, but I wonder; does doing this cause more damage? I guess I’ll find out when I am older, as I have to pay my bills.
- hilyen 7y ago
  Just be careful with NSAIDS, taking them regularly can cause stomach ulcers.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    And taking them for many years can cause kidney damage.
- brians 7y ago
  Lots of good advice here. Ergo keyboards (I like the kinesis advantage, and they last decades) and breaks worked for me. Dvorak is mostly useful because you have to relearn it, and might learn it without whatever broken ideas your body has about QWERTY. Chair adjustments are huge. Get a steelcase chair—I like the leap. Have it adjusted by a pro, whose biggest advantages are being able to see what you really do as you type and knowing all the dials in advance. And get stronger. A stronger back, shoulders, arms, grip will help you stay working in safe positions longer. Anything from tennis to deadlifts will work here.
  - nufohede 7y ago
    Just adding another data point, my Kinesis Advantage only lasted 6 months before it started experiencing phantom key strokes. Sending it in to get repaired would have costed almost as much as getting a new keyboard since I don’t live in the US. I replaced it with a Microsoft Sculpt that has lasted for years now.
    - sleepybrett 7y ago
      There is a open source controller for the advantage that makes it fully programable and fixes some problems that the advantage 1 had with some ghost presses and stuck modifiers. I've modified two advantages to use it, it requires a bit of soldering and some willingness to compile your own firmware from qmk. https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2013-03-21-kinesis_custom_controller/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2013-03-21-kinesis_custo... https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/BwWRYP5c https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/BwWRYP5c https://qmk.fm/ https://qmk.fm/ I've presonally never managed to get caps/mode leds back to working, but I also don't really care enough to dig in that deeply.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  When I was trying to learn 10 finger my wrists started to have pain. I immediately stopped and to this day still do my made up three finger touch typing on each hand. I'm still paranoid, my right elbow and lower arm still feel sensitive. I switched to an ergo mouse that's vertical there. It's crazy to think I could go from XK/year to 0K/year over something so "simple". Staying strong is a good idea - I will start more core / physical fitness.
- sleepybrett 7y ago
  you might want to look at the kinesis advantage keyboard, moves the backspace and enter to your thumbs cluster, and greatly improves ergonomics for your pinkie fingers.
bspammer 7y ago
I'm 23 and have been using computers very heavily for the last 10 or so years - probably an average of 6 hours a day. During a particularly intensive day of typing last week I started getting pain in my right hand. I had to resort to hunt-and-peck index finger typing to get the feature I was working on finished. I'm horrified, it feels like I'm way too early in my career for something like this to happen, but I guess that's what happens when you do something so repetitive for tens of thousands of hours. What in particular have you found success with that helps? I'm kinda in denial right now, it's already gotten better over Saturday but I know I shouldn't be ignoring it.
- pknopf 7y ago
  I learned to use mouse with my other hand. I was literally forced to one day, out of pain. Took me 2 days to feel normal with it. Nowadays, I juggle back and forth, depending on comfort.
  - carlmr 7y ago
    I'm pretty good at that too, but mostly due to temporary climbing injuries.
  - steve19 7y ago
    I was in the same situation. It is incredibly frustrating to learn but it just takes time. I kept two mice on each side of the computer for years and alternated between them as required.
    - Aperocky 7y ago
      Is it really the mice? I don't use a mice, I had the impression that most of the problem was due to typing?
      - steve19 7y ago
        In my case and for many other people, mice are part of the problem.
digsy 7y ago
Also same boat. I've found that a mix of proper ergonomics, regular breaks, CBD oil (for inflammation), wrist braces and physical therapy exercises can do a lot of good.
- hilyen 7y ago
  where do you get your cbd oil / what brand? Thanks
throwaway3714 7y ago
For those in this thread, try mechanical keyboards without much actuation force, like Cherry MX clear. Also try programmable keyboards or custom keymap layouts, which will allow you to map Return to the caps lock key to balance RSI a bit. I have issues with my right index which I almost completely blame on Diablo 1/2, swapping left + right click helps a lot. I’ve also tried and wouldn’t recommend: Dvorak (no noticeable difference) Egrodox (extremely hard to learn) Maaaaybeee tiled window managers, dunno where I stand on that one but it probably doesn’t help a lot ergonomics wise.
- throwaway3714 7y ago
  I’ll also mention that cherry mx blue are much to heavy for me, and brown hurt after a week of furious typing. My problem with clears is that if I rest my hands too much I press keys because they’re so light
  - melling 7y ago
    Clears require more force than Browns? https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/keyswitches https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/keyswitches
    - throwaway_391 7y ago
      Grantparent poster here. Hrm, you're right, I remember purchasing keys 'lighter' than browns, possibly silvers. They're very light, but I'd probably prefer 'too light' over 'too heavy'.
      - Nyubis 7y ago
        You may have Gateron Clears, which are lighter than Gateron Browns. Gateron Browns are basically equivalent to Cherry MX Browns, but Gateron Clears are entirely different from Cherry MX Clears. This has tripped me up more than once.
- bootlooped 7y ago
  I really like my ergodox. I can't go back to a normal keyboard. The only upgrade I can think of is going to a kinesis advantage or dactyl. It took about a week to get comfortable with mine, longer until I was better with it than a normal keyboard.
jsjolen 7y ago
If what you have is actually tendinitis in your elbows then that's fixable through physical therapy (progressively heavier slow loading of the joint in the form of concentric-only single-joint movements).

by hilyen 7y ago

elevenoh 7y ago

Had a similar issue. Then I went zerocarb and it faded fairly quickly.

cheez 7y ago
0 carb is the thing!

throwaway61292 7y ago

Can you elaborate on somethings you wish you had done. I get a bit of pain after half a day of coding, mostly my right pinky after hitting enter multiple times. Also get pain after certain activities like rolling food into a ball for my toddlers. I’ve joint pains here and there and the doctors have not yet found the cause and think it’s early onset of arthritis and have been told to take pain killers. I’m 39 by the way! Edit: added age

LukeShu 7y ago
I (25yo), also had pain in my right pinky and wrist, starting about 2 years ago. I spoke with a friend who had surgery for Carpel Tunnel Syndrome, and knew a lot more about this than me. What he told me: * Carpel Tunnel Syndrome affects the thumb/index-finger; pain in the pinky side of your hand could be caused by uthe ulnar tunnel or the cubital tunnel. * He does sets of 10 of these stretches every hour http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJw/lMj843282OE/s1600/CTS_BLOG.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJ... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8a/a4/2c/8aa42cc5c059cabf9aeb989914ca79ea.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8a/a4/2c/8aa4... * "One of the biggest things you can do is splint your wrist at night. This is one of the best wrist braces I've found: https://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Fitted-Wrist-Brace-Number/dp/B002NLGNW8/ https://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Fitted-Wrist-Brace-Number/dp/... " My experience: - I got a foot pedal, and put Alt, Ctrl, Shift, and Enter on it (and for a while pulled those keycaps off the right side of my keyboard, to force myself to learn to use the foot pedal). This allowed me to keep using a computer while I recovered, and allowed me to avoid stressing my pinky after I recovered. I wrote a bit about that on Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7remed/has_anybody_used_foot_pedals/dswhzkt/ https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7remed/has_anybody_u... . - The tendon gliding exercises were very helpful. The other stretches didn't seem to make much difference. While I was recovering, I tried to do them hourly. I now only do them if it's acting up. - I second his endorsement of those wrist braces. When using them, I wear them at night, and when typing if I can (I can use a desk keyboard with them, but can't use my laptop with them). While I was recovering, I used them all the time, now I only use them if it's acting up. - More recently, I got a Keyboardio Model 01, which puts the modifiers on the thumbs, not the pinkies. The foot pedal is entirely unnecessary with it; it puts much less strain on my hands. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJw/lMj84328 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cl-rpkmgPqI/UeUWdH4oMUI/AAAAAAAAAJ... Nowadays, my wrist acts up maybe once a month or two.
hilyen 7y ago
(35 now, this started at 33) I wish I quit my job when it started to get worse instead of continuing while I was doing PT. I was doing 8-10 hour days of coding in a startup, my hands and arms got worse and I started doing 4 hour days 3 times a week and doing physical therapy, dr appointments etc. It continued to get worse. I had a lot of faith in my doctors figuring it out. They kept telling me I’d get better, it’d heal. Well, we’re years from then and none of that came to fruition. Not only that, the doctors misdiagnosed me multiple times, not able to come to an agreement on what it was. They still don’t. They call it RSI, arthritis, posterior interosseous nerve syndrome, and others that I cannot remember. My advice, look up an ergonomics diagram, compare your setup to a proper setup. Then make adjustments to areas you’re having trouble with. I use an ergodox ez keyboard w/ a 3m sort of joystick mouse (it doesn’t tilt though, you move it like a normal mouse). I can get away with 1 hour working, then icing, stretching then repeat. For about 4 hours total for a day, but I wonder; does doing this cause more damage? I guess I’ll find out when I am older, as I have to pay my bills.
hilyen 7y ago
Just be careful with NSAIDS, taking them regularly can cause stomach ulcers.
- mirimir 7y ago
  And taking them for many years can cause kidney damage.
brians 7y ago
Lots of good advice here. Ergo keyboards (I like the kinesis advantage, and they last decades) and breaks worked for me. Dvorak is mostly useful because you have to relearn it, and might learn it without whatever broken ideas your body has about QWERTY. Chair adjustments are huge. Get a steelcase chair—I like the leap. Have it adjusted by a pro, whose biggest advantages are being able to see what you really do as you type and knowing all the dials in advance. And get stronger. A stronger back, shoulders, arms, grip will help you stay working in safe positions longer. Anything from tennis to deadlifts will work here.
- nufohede 7y ago
  Just adding another data point, my Kinesis Advantage only lasted 6 months before it started experiencing phantom key strokes. Sending it in to get repaired would have costed almost as much as getting a new keyboard since I don’t live in the US. I replaced it with a Microsoft Sculpt that has lasted for years now.
  - sleepybrett 7y ago
    There is a open source controller for the advantage that makes it fully programable and fixes some problems that the advantage 1 had with some ghost presses and stuck modifiers. I've modified two advantages to use it, it requires a bit of soldering and some willingness to compile your own firmware from qmk. https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2013-03-21-kinesis_custom_controller/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2013-03-21-kinesis_custo... https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/BwWRYP5c https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/BwWRYP5c https://qmk.fm/ https://qmk.fm/ I've presonally never managed to get caps/mode leds back to working, but I also don't really care enough to dig in that deeply.
privateSFacct 7y ago
When I was trying to learn 10 finger my wrists started to have pain. I immediately stopped and to this day still do my made up three finger touch typing on each hand. I'm still paranoid, my right elbow and lower arm still feel sensitive. I switched to an ergo mouse that's vertical there. It's crazy to think I could go from XK/year to 0K/year over something so "simple". Staying strong is a good idea - I will start more core / physical fitness.
sleepybrett 7y ago
you might want to look at the kinesis advantage keyboard, moves the backspace and enter to your thumbs cluster, and greatly improves ergonomics for your pinkie fingers.

bspammer 7y ago

I'm 23 and have been using computers very heavily for the last 10 or so years - probably an average of 6 hours a day. During a particularly intensive day of typing last week I started getting pain in my right hand. I had to resort to hunt-and-peck index finger typing to get the feature I was working on finished. I'm horrified, it feels like I'm way too early in my career for something like this to happen, but I guess that's what happens when you do something so repetitive for tens of thousands of hours. What in particular have you found success with that helps? I'm kinda in denial right now, it's already gotten better over Saturday but I know I shouldn't be ignoring it.

pknopf 7y ago
I learned to use mouse with my other hand. I was literally forced to one day, out of pain. Took me 2 days to feel normal with it. Nowadays, I juggle back and forth, depending on comfort.
- carlmr 7y ago
  I'm pretty good at that too, but mostly due to temporary climbing injuries.
- steve19 7y ago
  I was in the same situation. It is incredibly frustrating to learn but it just takes time. I kept two mice on each side of the computer for years and alternated between them as required.
  - Aperocky 7y ago
    Is it really the mice? I don't use a mice, I had the impression that most of the problem was due to typing?
    - steve19 7y ago
      In my case and for many other people, mice are part of the problem.

digsy 7y ago

Also same boat. I've found that a mix of proper ergonomics, regular breaks, CBD oil (for inflammation), wrist braces and physical therapy exercises can do a lot of good.

hilyen 7y ago
where do you get your cbd oil / what brand? Thanks

throwaway3714 7y ago

For those in this thread, try mechanical keyboards without much actuation force, like Cherry MX clear. Also try programmable keyboards or custom keymap layouts, which will allow you to map Return to the caps lock key to balance RSI a bit. I have issues with my right index which I almost completely blame on Diablo 1/2, swapping left + right click helps a lot. I’ve also tried and wouldn’t recommend: Dvorak (no noticeable difference) Egrodox (extremely hard to learn) Maaaaybeee tiled window managers, dunno where I stand on that one but it probably doesn’t help a lot ergonomics wise.

throwaway3714 7y ago
I’ll also mention that cherry mx blue are much to heavy for me, and brown hurt after a week of furious typing. My problem with clears is that if I rest my hands too much I press keys because they’re so light
- melling 7y ago
  Clears require more force than Browns? https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/keyswitches https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/keyswitches
  - throwaway_391 7y ago
    Grantparent poster here. Hrm, you're right, I remember purchasing keys 'lighter' than browns, possibly silvers. They're very light, but I'd probably prefer 'too light' over 'too heavy'.
    - Nyubis 7y ago
      You may have Gateron Clears, which are lighter than Gateron Browns. Gateron Browns are basically equivalent to Cherry MX Browns, but Gateron Clears are entirely different from Cherry MX Clears. This has tripped me up more than once.
bootlooped 7y ago
I really like my ergodox. I can't go back to a normal keyboard. The only upgrade I can think of is going to a kinesis advantage or dactyl. It took about a week to get comfortable with mine, longer until I was better with it than a normal keyboard.

jsjolen 7y ago

If what you have is actually tendinitis in your elbows then that's fixable through physical therapy (progressively heavier slow loading of the joint in the form of concentric-only single-joint movements).