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In the US we really need to figure out what our prisons are for. Are they for punishment or rehabilitation? Do we just want to impose pain on people that have d

In the US we really need to figure out what our prisons are for. Are they for punishment or rehabilitation? Do we just want to impose pain on people that have done bad things, or are we trying to change them into people that wont do those bad things anymore? Punishment might feel good to some people on a visceral level, but what good does it do?

craftyguy 7y ago
In the US we know our prisons are used for punishment, so there's really no point in asking that question. A better question might be: should be transform them from punishment to rehab? (I think 'yes', but there are many here in the US who disagree because 'fuck them, they're criminals and they deserve it')
lisper 7y ago
> Are they for punishment or rehabilitation? Neither. They are for sequestration. They are a place to put people that society just doesn't want to deal with. Punishment is just a side-effect. This is the reason we put people awaiting trial in the same facilities as people who have been convicted of crimes. Rehabilitation is not even on the radar.
gumby 7y ago
This is a jail, not a prison, and has a clear purpose (holding people for trials and such). Not defending the medieval “justice” system in the us, just being clear.
- patientplatypus 7y ago
  Jails are worse. Often you have lots of people in the same jail not broken out by offense as its a holding pen for the locality. Which means you have minor drug offenses in the same facility with armed burglars and rapists. Additionally, a lot of times it makes sense for someone awaiting trial to push the date back as far as possible, in the hopes that witnesses or the prosecution decide not to show at trial or forget the offense. Maybe you can then get off with time served and without a conviction. Which means jails are "how long can you survive in the worst possible place so your life is not ruined more than it already is". Because America is a fucking shitshow and we just don't give two tugs of a dead dogs dick about basic human rights. I really hate this country.
  - bigwavedave 7y ago
    > "I really hate this country." Try enacting positive change or leave. You won't be missed.
  - gumby 7y ago
    The jail system is a big direct driver of poverty even before the prison system is even involved. This was a major factor of the Ferguson riots which quickly fell out of the simplistic press narrative. The mayor decided to lower taxes and fill the gap by charging people who were arrested. The consequences of that are no surprise. (Not sure why my GP comment was downvoted. They are different systems with different pathologies).
candu 7y ago
Among other things, it enriches private prison operators through exploitation of indentured labour, disproportionately incarcerates low-income / racialized people on non-violent drug offenses, costs the average US household nearly $1700/year, leads to high recidivism rates, and dovetails with the growing militarization of police forces. [1] But hey, at least it feels good to some people on a visceral level! Those world-leading incarceration rates won't maintain themselves, you know. As a non-American, I'll never understand the cultural cognitive dissonance in simultaneously trusting the government to be "tough on crime" - despite all evidence that this approach backfires strongly - and distrusting their intervention in just about anything else. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...
User23 7y ago
This is a subject that demands pragmatism. At risk of stating the obvious, the primary utility of incarceration is to prevent the convict from victimizing more innocents. It's a crude solution, but it is undeniably effective. It's very difficult to commit crimes against innocents in general society from a prison cell. So, given that the pragmatic benefit of incarceration is protecting the innocent from being victimized, which presumably we all support, we should look if there are other less crude ways to achieve the same goal. I understand that Drug Court and similar programs have had some measurable success. But we can't forget there are very bad people who will treat diversion programs as a joke and an opportunity to continue to prey on others. Those individuals should be incarcerated, not to punish, but to prevent them from offending again. Rehabilitation would be wonderful and the opportunity should be offered, but some persons just don't want to be rehabilitated.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  "At risk of stating the obvious, the primary utility of incarceration is to prevent the convict from victimizing more innocents." This is not the purpose of incarceration in Germany or the Scandinavian countries. The purpose there is simply loss of freedom for a short while as punishment, and assistance to better yourself for when you're released. And their low recidivism rates bear this out.

craftyguy 7y ago

In the US we know our prisons are used for punishment, so there's really no point in asking that question. A better question might be: should be transform them from punishment to rehab? (I think 'yes', but there are many here in the US who disagree because 'fuck them, they're criminals and they deserve it')

lisper 7y ago

> Are they for punishment or rehabilitation? Neither. They are for sequestration. They are a place to put people that society just doesn't want to deal with. Punishment is just a side-effect. This is the reason we put people awaiting trial in the same facilities as people who have been convicted of crimes. Rehabilitation is not even on the radar.

gumby 7y ago

This is a jail, not a prison, and has a clear purpose (holding people for trials and such). Not defending the medieval “justice” system in the us, just being clear.

patientplatypus 7y ago
Jails are worse. Often you have lots of people in the same jail not broken out by offense as its a holding pen for the locality. Which means you have minor drug offenses in the same facility with armed burglars and rapists. Additionally, a lot of times it makes sense for someone awaiting trial to push the date back as far as possible, in the hopes that witnesses or the prosecution decide not to show at trial or forget the offense. Maybe you can then get off with time served and without a conviction. Which means jails are "how long can you survive in the worst possible place so your life is not ruined more than it already is". Because America is a fucking shitshow and we just don't give two tugs of a dead dogs dick about basic human rights. I really hate this country.
- bigwavedave 7y ago
  > "I really hate this country." Try enacting positive change or leave. You won't be missed.
- gumby 7y ago
  The jail system is a big direct driver of poverty even before the prison system is even involved. This was a major factor of the Ferguson riots which quickly fell out of the simplistic press narrative. The mayor decided to lower taxes and fill the gap by charging people who were arrested. The consequences of that are no surprise. (Not sure why my GP comment was downvoted. They are different systems with different pathologies).

candu 7y ago

Among other things, it enriches private prison operators through exploitation of indentured labour, disproportionately incarcerates low-income / racialized people on non-violent drug offenses, costs the average US household nearly $1700/year, leads to high recidivism rates, and dovetails with the growing militarization of police forces. [1] But hey, at least it feels good to some people on a visceral level! Those world-leading incarceration rates won't maintain themselves, you know. As a non-American, I'll never understand the cultural cognitive dissonance in simultaneously trusting the government to be "tough on crime" - despite all evidence that this approach backfires strongly - and distrusting their intervention in just about anything else. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

User23 7y ago

This is a subject that demands pragmatism. At risk of stating the obvious, the primary utility of incarceration is to prevent the convict from victimizing more innocents. It's a crude solution, but it is undeniably effective. It's very difficult to commit crimes against innocents in general society from a prison cell. So, given that the pragmatic benefit of incarceration is protecting the innocent from being victimized, which presumably we all support, we should look if there are other less crude ways to achieve the same goal. I understand that Drug Court and similar programs have had some measurable success. But we can't forget there are very bad people who will treat diversion programs as a joke and an opportunity to continue to prey on others. Those individuals should be incarcerated, not to punish, but to prevent them from offending again. Rehabilitation would be wonderful and the opportunity should be offered, but some persons just don't want to be rehabilitated.

kstenerud 7y ago
"At risk of stating the obvious, the primary utility of incarceration is to prevent the convict from victimizing more innocents." This is not the purpose of incarceration in Germany or the Scandinavian countries. The purpose there is simply loss of freedom for a short while as punishment, and assistance to better yourself for when you're released. And their low recidivism rates bear this out.