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This story resonates. A few years back I was dealing with mild pain while coding. I stupidly ignored it for months as it got significantly worse, to the point w

This story resonates. A few years back I was dealing with mild pain while coding. I stupidly ignored it for months as it got significantly worse, to the point where it became impossible to type for extended periods. I tried lots of things. My doctor did a nerve conduction study, which apparently ruled out carpal tunnel syndrome, but he wasn't much help beyond that. He gave me some straps that I slept in and wore around to keep my wrists immobilized. I did some physical therapy. I got a split keyboard and ergonomic mouse. I even took a month off from typing, then returned, but the pain was worse than ever. The double whammy of severe pain combined with the fear that you'll never code again is rough to say the least. I resolved to just code with my voice. I never found Talon but found VoiceCode instead. It also relied on Dragon's NaturallySpeaking software, which I was dismayed to learn was still the best desktop software out there. My hopes and ambition for what VoiceCode could do always outpaced reality, but it was workable. I remember impressing some friends who witnessed me quickly and accurately writing code by speaking what seemed like gibberish. As the author notes, the biggest problem quickly becomes that your voice tires out. You're not built to talk nonstop for hours on end every day. I was forced to become a much more efficient developer for a bit. Eventually the pain began to subside. I remember when I first noticed it happening, because it was one of the happiest moments of my life. After a little experimentation and observation, it was clear that my recovery was positively correlated with consistency in going to the gym for heavy weightlifting sessions. Even today, pain in my hands and wrists is a reliable signal that I haven't been lifting in recent weeks, and when I start back, the pain goes away.

sdegutis 7y ago
I had literally the exact same experience as your first two paragraphs. Where my experience diverged is when I met a doctor of some kind who explained that it's the same kind of pain that truckers often get for resting their arms on the armrests. Turns out it was because I was resting my arms on the keyboard or the desk between me and the keyboard. Stopped doing that, the pain went away completely within a few days, and hasn't come back since. That was like 4 years ago. Just don't rest your arms on anything, that's the trick.
- kzzy 7y ago
  Very helpful information, going to try this out, thanks!
- ericmcer 7y ago
  That makes a lot of sense, the best cure for my wrist pain I found was deep massage on certain places in my forearms. Thinking back the area I hit most often was the point where my forearms lay on the armrests.
- joshontheweb 7y ago
  Interesting. Could you be more specific about where your pain was located? Was it in you arms or wrists?
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    Anywhere from my pinky to my elbow, depending on the day and hour. Sometimes connecting them in a straight line.
- synthmeat 7y ago
  This helped me too. It was combination of desk edge and sleeping on the hand that was causing it. Started sleeping on back or the other side and resting full forearm on desk (so not on edge; at least pressure's distributed) or the actual proper posture (not resting forearm anywhere), and it went away fairly soon.
tcoff91 7y ago
Try doing some rock climbing either outdoors or at the rock gym. Fixed my hand pain real quick.
- stevekemp 7y ago
  In my case too much bouldering caused forearm pain that lasted for two years. Didn't stop me from typing, but it did have a significant impact on my daily life :/
  - latchkey 7y ago
    I also suffered from hand pain from typing and took up climbing both inside and a bit of outside for a good 8 years solid. I found bouldering to be way more intense than just top rope (eventually getting into lead) climbing. Most of my hand/arm injuries were from bouldering. I concur with the previous response though... climbing, done well and not over doing it... was the 100% solution to my pain problem. Sitting and typing all day, you lose muscle and strength, not just in your hands, but your arms, shoulders and neck. Climbing builds it right back and really helped more than any special keyboards or posture changes I tried.
    - melling 7y ago
      I don’t suppose this could be translated into specific exercises in the gym?
      - Infinitesimus 7y ago
        Not the same especially with grip style but you can go a long way by strengthening your back. I'm talking of horizontal and vertical pulls (heavy rows, pullups, lat pulldowns, deadlifts to an extent). In my unscientific observation, a lot of people have very weak posterior chains. My wrist pain has always (so far) been the result of a knot in my upper back or a weakness there. Don't forget to foam roll, stretch and perhaps add in some periodic deep tissue massage to keep things from getting too tight cos that also brings problems
      - 7y ago
GordonS 7y ago
Thanks for posting this. The article, and your post, also resonated with me. I have small fiber neuropathy in my arms and legs, which causes constant pain and a feeling of weakness. I've had this for a few years now, and I'm very aware that it's only got worse over that period, and that I may later get damage to the larger nerves used for motor control. Like you say, the pain and fear that coding (which is my livelihood and passion) may become impossible is quite terrifying, and a constant, nagging presence in the back of my mind. I haven't tried any dictation software since the days of Dragan Dictate, possibly 1-2 decades ago, but I'd like to hope it's come in since then. It sounds like you really persisted with it, and I have a few questions about your experience if you don't mind: 1. Was the pace much slower, and did you get frustrated with it? A mouse and keyboard allows me to operate closer to the "speed of thought" than I would guess dictation software would 2. What do you say to move the cursor around, or switch between open files? 3. I'd guess there's a big difference between dictating a document and coding or working on the command line, as you're not always inputting "real" words. How well did dictation work in that regard? 4. Are any IDEs particular dictation-friendly?
- csallen 7y ago
  1. It was slower and I was frustrated, yes. I don't know about the newer Talon software, but with VoiceCode I spent a lot of overhead just configuring my setup and tweaking it, to say nothing of the slower coding speeds while using it. But once you get going, it's faster than you might think, and it feels vaguely futuristic. In fact I'd say some things are faster. I used a lot more macros, for example. Scrolling is slow. I often cheated and would type or use my mouse. 2. Honestly I can't remember the specifics of my setup. It was too long ago. 3. Above, I'm only really talking about dictating for code. You need a bunch of custom commands for that. Dictating for writing prose was pretty straightforward. If memory serves, VoiceCode had a different mode you could switch into for that. 4. Not sure. I believe I was using Atom at the time. I now use VS Code.
1e-9 7y ago
I once had a similar experience, except it was the muscles in my back, between my shoulder blades, that were causing great pain. I eventually realized that 1) the issue was due to long hours of keyboard work, and 2) when I added seated cable rows to my lifting routine, the pain went away completely.
jroro93jdj 7y ago
Re: dragonfly Surely a bespoke and custom solution is do-able with ML anymore? At least for me, I’m down to Python, and Go as my daily driver languages. I lean heavily into reusable code and can solve a lot of problems with imports from git sources (everyone all on about DRY and write less code, right?) Feels like a reasonably constrained problem set to organize a few sequences of voice commands around.
bluedino 7y ago
I don't have pain in my hands, but I get severe back pain from time to time. It's difficult to sit or stand (or be in any position, really) for a few days at a time. I can do some things just fine, like type, but I certainly can't concentrate long enough to do any programming tasks because the pain is so distracting.
- spydum 7y ago
  same here, and I will repeat csallen's solution: going to the gym and lifting heavy things (squat/deadlifts/etc with good form and comfortable pace) has turned my decades long back pain around completely. It took about 6 months to really be sure it had improved, but it's been amazing, plus there have been significant cognitive benefits. Couple the gym with less sitting, and more standing -- couldnt be happier, wish I had done it earlier.
  - bluedino 7y ago
    I can regularly workout and deadlift 500lbs - it has certainly helped but hasn’t eliminated the pain.
- Insanity 7y ago
  Going to add more anecdata to the thread. Going to the gym and swimming both helped with my neck and back pain. When not going for some weeks (like when traveling) I can tell it becomes worse. Plus you get in shape which is neat. I started out for health benefits but would be lying if I said I did not enjoy the visual benefits. :P
dmix 7y ago
> It also relied on Dragon's NaturallySpeaking software, which I was dismayed to learn was still the best desktop software out there. Sounds like a business opportunity especially with the barrier to AI being lowered. But I guess there is some real value in having been doing it as long as the Dragon team has.
einpoklum 7y ago
To other readers: Be very careful about weight lifting. It has a lot of risks, both of immediate trauma and longer-term excessive strain. So seek the guidance of relevant professionals, including a physical therapist and/or an orthopedics specialist physician, either before or during weight lift training. This is doubly true if you have been in serious pain. I'm not suggesting that you _not_ lift weights - just take care.
- indecisive_user 7y ago
  All exercise has risks. Walking has risks. The question is not what the risks are, but do the benefits of the exercise outweigh potential risks? For lifting weights, the answer is absolutely yes. Strengthening bones, improving mental health, better sleep, lower blood pressure, less injury prone as you get older, etc. etc. These are the benefits of regular strength training. For otherwise healthy people, you do not have to consult a professional before starting a weight lifting routine. I'm sure that your caution is well meaning, and people should definitely ease into a new exercise routine slowly, but recommending that people talk to a doctor or PT before they go to the gym is an overabundance of caution that will lead people to skip out on it altogether out of a misplaced fear of injury.
krick 7y ago
So was this post written by speaking or typing?
indecisive_user 7y ago
>After a little experimentation and observation, it was clear that my recovery was positively correlated with consistency in going to the gym for heavy weightlifting sessions This was my experience as well. Started getting inflammation and pain on the top of both forearms that made typing for longer than 15 minutes very painful. I was convinced for a while that I had some sort of nerve entrapment that would need surgery to fix. Ibuprofen helped a little, as did wrapping my forearms in braces, but the only thing that alleviated the pain long term was lifting heavy weights.
pknopf 7y ago
If you have carpal tunnel, lifting weights can make things worse. It puts more stress in the narrow canal that your tendons go through, which cause the pain.
- AJ007 7y ago
  At the worst, I had continuous wrist pain and woke up in the morning unable to feel my arms. I couldn’t physically hold a mouse for more than about 15 minutes. When this happened I was also lifting weights. I spent thousands of dollars on ergonomic chairs, keyboards, mice. It helped but didn’t solve the symptoms completely. I was unable to do things like use a laptop without pain. Several years later I started doing basic body strength exercises. I thought I had permanent nerve damage by that point, but within about 4 weeks all symptoms were gone. That was 10 years ago. I think a lot of these problems are related to shoulder, neck, and arm muscles. Stress, cold, seem to exacerbate the symptoms. Nothing I read in years of research had the right answer.
  - demilicious 7y ago
    Can you describe what body weight exercises you found helpful? Why do you think those were different than what you were accomplishing with traditional gym weightlifting?
    - AJ007 7y ago
      I think it was something related to the tight grip used in lifting weights. I started with the beginning workouts from the book You Are Your Own Gym. In retrospect, 90% of the benefit was from the pushups, which I had completely avoided doing once I started getting severe wrist pain.
djsumdog 7y ago
I started to have knee pain in my early 20s and my dad had both knees replaces sometime in his 60s. I was afraid I'd end up that way and went to a sports clinic (I do a lot of dancing). I had patilla bilat; basically the knee cap was off to the side instead of sitting squarely. They said everything else on my knee looked good. Out of all the physically therapy exercises, the most significant was cycling. I started to do a lot of cycling after that, which builds the muscles on both sides of the knee and helps keep the kneecap centered. I had a similar experience, where the knee pain would start to return if I slacked off on cycling. These days I cycle ~100km per week (12km per day to work and back and a bunch on the weekends) during the summer and still dance and haven't had the knee pain return in years.

sdegutis 7y ago

I had literally the exact same experience as your first two paragraphs. Where my experience diverged is when I met a doctor of some kind who explained that it's the same kind of pain that truckers often get for resting their arms on the armrests. Turns out it was because I was resting my arms on the keyboard or the desk between me and the keyboard. Stopped doing that, the pain went away completely within a few days, and hasn't come back since. That was like 4 years ago. Just don't rest your arms on anything, that's the trick.

kzzy 7y ago
Very helpful information, going to try this out, thanks!
ericmcer 7y ago
That makes a lot of sense, the best cure for my wrist pain I found was deep massage on certain places in my forearms. Thinking back the area I hit most often was the point where my forearms lay on the armrests.
joshontheweb 7y ago
Interesting. Could you be more specific about where your pain was located? Was it in you arms or wrists?
- sdegutis 7y ago
  Anywhere from my pinky to my elbow, depending on the day and hour. Sometimes connecting them in a straight line.
synthmeat 7y ago
This helped me too. It was combination of desk edge and sleeping on the hand that was causing it. Started sleeping on back or the other side and resting full forearm on desk (so not on edge; at least pressure's distributed) or the actual proper posture (not resting forearm anywhere), and it went away fairly soon.

tcoff91 7y ago

Try doing some rock climbing either outdoors or at the rock gym. Fixed my hand pain real quick.

stevekemp 7y ago
In my case too much bouldering caused forearm pain that lasted for two years. Didn't stop me from typing, but it did have a significant impact on my daily life :/
- latchkey 7y ago
  I also suffered from hand pain from typing and took up climbing both inside and a bit of outside for a good 8 years solid. I found bouldering to be way more intense than just top rope (eventually getting into lead) climbing. Most of my hand/arm injuries were from bouldering. I concur with the previous response though... climbing, done well and not over doing it... was the 100% solution to my pain problem. Sitting and typing all day, you lose muscle and strength, not just in your hands, but your arms, shoulders and neck. Climbing builds it right back and really helped more than any special keyboards or posture changes I tried.
  - melling 7y ago
    I don’t suppose this could be translated into specific exercises in the gym?
    - Infinitesimus 7y ago
      Not the same especially with grip style but you can go a long way by strengthening your back. I'm talking of horizontal and vertical pulls (heavy rows, pullups, lat pulldowns, deadlifts to an extent). In my unscientific observation, a lot of people have very weak posterior chains. My wrist pain has always (so far) been the result of a knot in my upper back or a weakness there. Don't forget to foam roll, stretch and perhaps add in some periodic deep tissue massage to keep things from getting too tight cos that also brings problems
    - 7y ago

GordonS 7y ago

Thanks for posting this. The article, and your post, also resonated with me. I have small fiber neuropathy in my arms and legs, which causes constant pain and a feeling of weakness. I've had this for a few years now, and I'm very aware that it's only got worse over that period, and that I may later get damage to the larger nerves used for motor control. Like you say, the pain and fear that coding (which is my livelihood and passion) may become impossible is quite terrifying, and a constant, nagging presence in the back of my mind. I haven't tried any dictation software since the days of Dragan Dictate, possibly 1-2 decades ago, but I'd like to hope it's come in since then. It sounds like you really persisted with it, and I have a few questions about your experience if you don't mind: 1. Was the pace much slower, and did you get frustrated with it? A mouse and keyboard allows me to operate closer to the "speed of thought" than I would guess dictation software would 2. What do you say to move the cursor around, or switch between open files? 3. I'd guess there's a big difference between dictating a document and coding or working on the command line, as you're not always inputting "real" words. How well did dictation work in that regard? 4. Are any IDEs particular dictation-friendly?

csallen 7y ago
1. It was slower and I was frustrated, yes. I don't know about the newer Talon software, but with VoiceCode I spent a lot of overhead just configuring my setup and tweaking it, to say nothing of the slower coding speeds while using it. But once you get going, it's faster than you might think, and it feels vaguely futuristic. In fact I'd say some things are faster. I used a lot more macros, for example. Scrolling is slow. I often cheated and would type or use my mouse. 2. Honestly I can't remember the specifics of my setup. It was too long ago. 3. Above, I'm only really talking about dictating for code. You need a bunch of custom commands for that. Dictating for writing prose was pretty straightforward. If memory serves, VoiceCode had a different mode you could switch into for that. 4. Not sure. I believe I was using Atom at the time. I now use VS Code.

1e-9 7y ago

I once had a similar experience, except it was the muscles in my back, between my shoulder blades, that were causing great pain. I eventually realized that 1) the issue was due to long hours of keyboard work, and 2) when I added seated cable rows to my lifting routine, the pain went away completely.

jroro93jdj 7y ago

Re: dragonfly Surely a bespoke and custom solution is do-able with ML anymore? At least for me, I’m down to Python, and Go as my daily driver languages. I lean heavily into reusable code and can solve a lot of problems with imports from git sources (everyone all on about DRY and write less code, right?) Feels like a reasonably constrained problem set to organize a few sequences of voice commands around.

bluedino 7y ago

I don't have pain in my hands, but I get severe back pain from time to time. It's difficult to sit or stand (or be in any position, really) for a few days at a time. I can do some things just fine, like type, but I certainly can't concentrate long enough to do any programming tasks because the pain is so distracting.

spydum 7y ago
same here, and I will repeat csallen's solution: going to the gym and lifting heavy things (squat/deadlifts/etc with good form and comfortable pace) has turned my decades long back pain around completely. It took about 6 months to really be sure it had improved, but it's been amazing, plus there have been significant cognitive benefits. Couple the gym with less sitting, and more standing -- couldnt be happier, wish I had done it earlier.
- bluedino 7y ago
  I can regularly workout and deadlift 500lbs - it has certainly helped but hasn’t eliminated the pain.
Insanity 7y ago
Going to add more anecdata to the thread. Going to the gym and swimming both helped with my neck and back pain. When not going for some weeks (like when traveling) I can tell it becomes worse. Plus you get in shape which is neat. I started out for health benefits but would be lying if I said I did not enjoy the visual benefits. :P

dmix 7y ago

> It also relied on Dragon's NaturallySpeaking software, which I was dismayed to learn was still the best desktop software out there. Sounds like a business opportunity especially with the barrier to AI being lowered. But I guess there is some real value in having been doing it as long as the Dragon team has.

einpoklum 7y ago

To other readers: Be very careful about weight lifting. It has a lot of risks, both of immediate trauma and longer-term excessive strain. So seek the guidance of relevant professionals, including a physical therapist and/or an orthopedics specialist physician, either before or during weight lift training. This is doubly true if you have been in serious pain. I'm not suggesting that you _not_ lift weights - just take care.

indecisive_user 7y ago
All exercise has risks. Walking has risks. The question is not what the risks are, but do the benefits of the exercise outweigh potential risks? For lifting weights, the answer is absolutely yes. Strengthening bones, improving mental health, better sleep, lower blood pressure, less injury prone as you get older, etc. etc. These are the benefits of regular strength training. For otherwise healthy people, you do not have to consult a professional before starting a weight lifting routine. I'm sure that your caution is well meaning, and people should definitely ease into a new exercise routine slowly, but recommending that people talk to a doctor or PT before they go to the gym is an overabundance of caution that will lead people to skip out on it altogether out of a misplaced fear of injury.

krick 7y ago

So was this post written by speaking or typing?

indecisive_user 7y ago

>After a little experimentation and observation, it was clear that my recovery was positively correlated with consistency in going to the gym for heavy weightlifting sessions This was my experience as well. Started getting inflammation and pain on the top of both forearms that made typing for longer than 15 minutes very painful. I was convinced for a while that I had some sort of nerve entrapment that would need surgery to fix. Ibuprofen helped a little, as did wrapping my forearms in braces, but the only thing that alleviated the pain long term was lifting heavy weights.

pknopf 7y ago

If you have carpal tunnel, lifting weights can make things worse. It puts more stress in the narrow canal that your tendons go through, which cause the pain.

AJ007 7y ago
At the worst, I had continuous wrist pain and woke up in the morning unable to feel my arms. I couldn’t physically hold a mouse for more than about 15 minutes. When this happened I was also lifting weights. I spent thousands of dollars on ergonomic chairs, keyboards, mice. It helped but didn’t solve the symptoms completely. I was unable to do things like use a laptop without pain. Several years later I started doing basic body strength exercises. I thought I had permanent nerve damage by that point, but within about 4 weeks all symptoms were gone. That was 10 years ago. I think a lot of these problems are related to shoulder, neck, and arm muscles. Stress, cold, seem to exacerbate the symptoms. Nothing I read in years of research had the right answer.
- demilicious 7y ago
  Can you describe what body weight exercises you found helpful? Why do you think those were different than what you were accomplishing with traditional gym weightlifting?
  - AJ007 7y ago
    I think it was something related to the tight grip used in lifting weights. I started with the beginning workouts from the book You Are Your Own Gym. In retrospect, 90% of the benefit was from the pushups, which I had completely avoided doing once I started getting severe wrist pain.

djsumdog 7y ago

I started to have knee pain in my early 20s and my dad had both knees replaces sometime in his 60s. I was afraid I'd end up that way and went to a sports clinic (I do a lot of dancing). I had patilla bilat; basically the knee cap was off to the side instead of sitting squarely. They said everything else on my knee looked good. Out of all the physically therapy exercises, the most significant was cycling. I started to do a lot of cycling after that, which builds the muscles on both sides of the knee and helps keep the kneecap centered. I had a similar experience, where the knee pain would start to return if I slacked off on cycling. These days I cycle ~100km per week (12km per day to work and back and a bunch on the weekends) during the summer and still dance and haven't had the knee pain return in years.