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Luckily, there's plenty of carbon to offset (peakers) by deploying batteries before we have to worry about long term (seasonal) storage. However, I wouldn't be

Luckily, there's plenty of carbon to offset (peakers) by deploying batteries before we have to worry about long term (seasonal) storage. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the electrification of transportation ends up making batteries be the default "long term" storage option by using EVs as flexible grid storage. There's going to be 100x more batteries rolling around than what you'd need to stabilize the grid (e.g. peakers), so I wouldn't be surprised if the grid asks more from EVs than just stability so it doesn't have to spend the additional capital for seasonal storage.

gwbas1c 7y ago
Somehow, I think people waking up to find out that their EV doesn't have the charge they expected it to have will put that idea in its place. The idea that someone with an EV will allow the power company to randomly deplete its battery is a fantasy. Edit: We're much more likely to see home standby generators put to that use, or home batteries (connected to solar) put to that use.
- diafygi 7y ago
  Keep in mind that we're talking about single digit percentages of a battery's capacity being used. Also, its likely that many of the EV-to-grid arrangements will be for fleet vehicles (company/city cars, plus self-driving fleets when they happen), and they will be technically sophisticated enough to negotiate that capacity sharing with the grid operators. So you won't ever actually have a scenario you describe where a private EV will have it's battery depleted.
  - ahartman00 7y ago
    "likely that many of the EV-to-grid arrangements will be for fleet vehicles" Wont these be out and about during the day when the sun is shining and need to be charged during the night? Seems like these are the opposite of storage, they would exacerbate the problem? Creating a lot of demand(lots of buses in lots of cities) charging at night, and driving during the day. "will be technically sophisticated" This is an assumption, though it does seem technically possible. "scenario you describe where a private EV will have it's battery depleted" Im an environmentalist myself, but if I wake up on the morning of my vacation, and my car is at < 100%, I'm not going to be happy. You might say you could provide a way to signal that your car needs to be at 100%, but I see a non trivial amount of people enabling that all the time. I guess if we require every parking lot with > x spaces to have plugs for all vehicles to charge/store during the day. Still requires people to actually bother plugging them in. Of course, they would also have to plug them in during the night, and unless they are getting paid to, I dont see people going through the minor hassle if it is no benefit to them. I'm just not really optimistic about the vehicles as storage idea, sadly. Sorry for the pessimism, but I feel like there is too much naive hand waving among environmentalists. I think we need a more realistic, critical discussion, focused on likely, probable solutions. Theres too much: "Everybody can just go out of their way too do x." Theres still people who think putting an aluminum can in a different bin is too much work. We have to work with these unfortunate realities, not just dismiss them.
    - diafygi 7y ago
      > if I wake up on the morning of my vacation, and my car is at < 100%, I'm not going to be happy. That will never happen, unless you intentionally jump through several hoops to shoot yourself in the foot. For example, there's a company called OhmConnect that does aggregated demand response. You can sign up for it, optionally connect your smart thermostat/plugs, and bank account. When there's going to be a high load period, OhmConnect notifies you asking if you want to participate in an upcoming "Ohm Hour". If you do, they will pay you $5-10 for your trouble. So, if you had a vacation the next day, of course you wouldn't opt-in to the demand response event. Disclosure: I am on a nonprofit board with OhmConnect.

gwbas1c 7y ago

Somehow, I think people waking up to find out that their EV doesn't have the charge they expected it to have will put that idea in its place. The idea that someone with an EV will allow the power company to randomly deplete its battery is a fantasy. Edit: We're much more likely to see home standby generators put to that use, or home batteries (connected to solar) put to that use.

diafygi 7y ago
Keep in mind that we're talking about single digit percentages of a battery's capacity being used. Also, its likely that many of the EV-to-grid arrangements will be for fleet vehicles (company/city cars, plus self-driving fleets when they happen), and they will be technically sophisticated enough to negotiate that capacity sharing with the grid operators. So you won't ever actually have a scenario you describe where a private EV will have it's battery depleted.
- ahartman00 7y ago
  "likely that many of the EV-to-grid arrangements will be for fleet vehicles" Wont these be out and about during the day when the sun is shining and need to be charged during the night? Seems like these are the opposite of storage, they would exacerbate the problem? Creating a lot of demand(lots of buses in lots of cities) charging at night, and driving during the day. "will be technically sophisticated" This is an assumption, though it does seem technically possible. "scenario you describe where a private EV will have it's battery depleted" Im an environmentalist myself, but if I wake up on the morning of my vacation, and my car is at < 100%, I'm not going to be happy. You might say you could provide a way to signal that your car needs to be at 100%, but I see a non trivial amount of people enabling that all the time. I guess if we require every parking lot with > x spaces to have plugs for all vehicles to charge/store during the day. Still requires people to actually bother plugging them in. Of course, they would also have to plug them in during the night, and unless they are getting paid to, I dont see people going through the minor hassle if it is no benefit to them. I'm just not really optimistic about the vehicles as storage idea, sadly. Sorry for the pessimism, but I feel like there is too much naive hand waving among environmentalists. I think we need a more realistic, critical discussion, focused on likely, probable solutions. Theres too much: "Everybody can just go out of their way too do x." Theres still people who think putting an aluminum can in a different bin is too much work. We have to work with these unfortunate realities, not just dismiss them.
  - diafygi 7y ago
    > if I wake up on the morning of my vacation, and my car is at < 100%, I'm not going to be happy. That will never happen, unless you intentionally jump through several hoops to shoot yourself in the foot. For example, there's a company called OhmConnect that does aggregated demand response. You can sign up for it, optionally connect your smart thermostat/plugs, and bank account. When there's going to be a high load period, OhmConnect notifies you asking if you want to participate in an upcoming "Ohm Hour". If you do, they will pay you $5-10 for your trouble. So, if you had a vacation the next day, of course you wouldn't opt-in to the demand response event. Disclosure: I am on a nonprofit board with OhmConnect.