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Oops, you've accidentally presented hard facts criticizing Tesla in a tech forum and have been summarily downvoted! Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick.

Oops, you've accidentally presented hard facts criticizing Tesla in a tech forum and have been summarily downvoted! Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick. It produces a number to prop up a marketing blurb. "Fastest production car ever!" Tesla has been doing the same sort of thing with "Safest car ever!" to the point that NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating. The devil really is in the details though. A properly engineered drivetrain will be able to sustain its launches over several back-to-back activations. This is precisely what the Porsche team has accomplished. The machines they ship will hit a number, and then they will hit that number again, and again, and again, and again. And that won't fade. It won't destroy the battery. It won't get nerfed with an over-the-air update a couple of months after hitting the market. This is what automotive engineering excellence looks like, and it's great to finally see it in an electric vehicle.

davewritescode 7y ago
100% agree with you, I feel like I get treated like a luddite when I tell people I’m not really a huge fan of Tesla. I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  > I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game. So was I. The Audi e-tron was supposed to be that, but I've been massively disillusioned by it's horrible efficiency, high price and inability to produce in volume.
  - jaxn 7y ago
    The E-Tron specs aren't up to par, so the Taycan looks like it will be the first real contender. At least in some aspects. It will be interesting to see what Audi's semi-autonomous stuff is like in the real world. If it's on par with Tesla's, then they may be able to fix the e-tron specs in v2. I was convinced my next car was going to be an Audi, but maybe a BMW. I had a string of VWs and loved German cars. Then my 2.0T blew up with the faulty timing chain (prior to the recall, but we it was obvious there was a systemic problem). VW didn't fix it. I now drive a Tesla Model 3. Currently there is nothing else close on the market. The Germans definitely lost at least one sale to me.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    Not sure why people don't bring up the Mercedes EQC400. Reviews have been generally excellent so far.
    - bryanlarsen 7y ago
      Over $70k for a vehicle with 220 miles of range?
      - threeseed 7y ago
        This isn't a computer. There is more to buying a car than a single spec. Mercedes is a fantastic brand. The interior is premium and luxurious. You don't have to worry about service, support or the company going bankrupt. And it overall is a really well designed car.
        bryanlarsen 7y ago
        There are a small number of people who will pay the Mercedes premium. There are a small number of people who will pay a premium to get electric. The intersection of the two is not a large market, IMO.
    - kwhitefoot 7y ago
      Probably because no one has one. At least in Norway the best you can do is reserve one by handing over your name and address, no indication of delivery date, no configurator.
- rhizome 7y ago
  I am highly excited for the VW "ID Buzz" eBus. https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/VWmediaIDbuzz.jpg https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/VWmediaIDbuz...
bryanlarsen 7y ago
> A properly engineered drivetrain will be able to sustain its launches over several back-to-back activations All cars designed primarily for the highway rather than the track have issues with brake heating, transmission fluid heating, et cetera, and slow down over time. The Model S is extreme in that manner, but the Model 3 slowdowns are are far less extreme than the S's limp mode. > NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating. Having the NHTSA say "A lack of evidence proving you're not the safest isn't the same as saying you are the safest" isn't really bad news or bad publicity. > The machines they ship will hit a number, and then they will hit that number again, and again, and again, and again. And that won't fade. It won't destroy the battery. It won't get nerfed with an over-the-air update a couple of months after hitting the market. The big manufacturers have been promising "Tesla killers" for a decade now. They've continually disappointed. This is Porsche's first production BEV. There will be compromises, they will make mistakes. It still might be a Tesla killer, substantially better than the new Tesla Roadster coming next year but up until they're shipping in volume and have had some time to shake out both cars are brochure-ware.
- cmsonger 7y ago
  > than the new Tesla Roadster coming next year I admire your optimism. I'll buy a 2020 roadster if it's anywhere close to what they describe and released any time soon; but I'm skeptical. (They also need to put a real steering wheel on it.) But I'm thinking it's not anywhere close to their top priority right now and that 2020 may end up being optimistic. But if they get it out there, it's targeted right on top of the 911 Turbo. Same price, same 2+2 configuration, higher performance, similar utility. Will be interesting to see what happens here. Too bad Tesla is trying to go downmarket. If they were staying more up-market I'd feel more confidence in this car coming out on time.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- nullwasamistake 7y ago
  > All cars designed primarily for the highway rather than the track have issues with brake heating, transmission fluid heating, et cetera, and slow down over time. This doesn't include trucks which are a large part of the market. Being designed to haul, everything is oversized.
CrazyStat 7y ago
>Tesla has been doing the same sort of thing with "Safest car ever!" to the point that NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating. Ten months ago, though it has been in the news again the last few days as the letter and response were just released. The blog post in question is still up, which means the NHTSA either backed off after Tesla's response or hasn't yet been able to get a court to take their side.
- xedeon 7y ago
  Because those documents were from 2018 and nothing came out of it after Tesla responded with data and "facts" provided by NHTSA themselves.
dabeeeenster 7y ago
This is entirely conjecture. Why not wait until the car is actually available.
endorphone 7y ago
"Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick." I live in a rural exurb area. Every spring-fall weekend features parades of supercars of the various supercar clubs. Million dollar plus vehicles. All driving at 60km, driving no differently than the Corolla that accidentally turned into their procession. Because it's all party tricks. These people aren't racing these cars, but are just sitting on potential. As an aside, I don't remember Tesla ever claiming that their vehicles were the "fastest production car", which is normally a measure of top speed. The Tesla has a positively mediocre top speed compared to supercars, and on any longer run will be demolished. It isn't built for repeat launches, or a quick lap at Nürburgring. But if you want a very confident merge on the highway, pass on the single lane highway, etc, it can confidently provide what you need. As an aside, all lithium ion batteries are degraded by high drain (similarly they are degraded by fast charging). Porsche is seeming buying the exact same technology in LG packs. They have identical issues that Tesla does. If you launch a P100d without ludicrous mode you'll do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.
- martin_bech 7y ago
  Exact same what? Teslas batteries are Panasonic, not LG.
  - endorphone 7y ago
    Sorry, exact same technology. If LG were using some new process, chemistry, technology, etc, it would be interesting, but otherwise it is effectively fungible.
- nullwasamistake 7y ago
  High drain isn't the problem, most lithium ion can be drained at 15-50C (drain rate not temperature) until empty without being harmed. P100D is 100kw/h battery, which should be able to put out at least 1500 hp continuously. The problem is 100% Tesla's cooling system not being powerful enough.
  - davidgould 7y ago
    Not all lithium ion can be drained at high rates like that. There is a trade off of safety, lifetime, energy density and power density (discharge rate). For instance the RC helicopter batteries are rated for 100C+, but are notorious for fires and short life time. As it happens, the RC photo drones are easier on the batteries and want longer run times so there are batteries that have higher energy density but can only handle 20C. A lot of e-bike packs are built from 1650 batteries and these are best off when limited to 3C. I'd imagine the priorities of a car battery are similar.
rconti 7y ago
I don't disagree with a lot of your points, but seriously, the Model S is ancient tech in the EV world. As someone who actually GOES to racetracks, last time I was at Laguna, we had 4 Model 3s and 2 S. Absolutely the S has overheating issues. They're also very old.

davewritescode 7y ago

100% agree with you, I feel like I get treated like a luddite when I tell people I’m not really a huge fan of Tesla. I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game.

bryanlarsen 7y ago
> I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game. So was I. The Audi e-tron was supposed to be that, but I've been massively disillusioned by it's horrible efficiency, high price and inability to produce in volume.
- jaxn 7y ago
  The E-Tron specs aren't up to par, so the Taycan looks like it will be the first real contender. At least in some aspects. It will be interesting to see what Audi's semi-autonomous stuff is like in the real world. If it's on par with Tesla's, then they may be able to fix the e-tron specs in v2. I was convinced my next car was going to be an Audi, but maybe a BMW. I had a string of VWs and loved German cars. Then my 2.0T blew up with the faulty timing chain (prior to the recall, but we it was obvious there was a systemic problem). VW didn't fix it. I now drive a Tesla Model 3. Currently there is nothing else close on the market. The Germans definitely lost at least one sale to me.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Not sure why people don't bring up the Mercedes EQC400. Reviews have been generally excellent so far.
  - bryanlarsen 7y ago
    Over $70k for a vehicle with 220 miles of range?
    - threeseed 7y ago
      This isn't a computer. There is more to buying a car than a single spec. Mercedes is a fantastic brand. The interior is premium and luxurious. You don't have to worry about service, support or the company going bankrupt. And it overall is a really well designed car.
      - bryanlarsen 7y ago
        There are a small number of people who will pay the Mercedes premium. There are a small number of people who will pay a premium to get electric. The intersection of the two is not a large market, IMO.
  - kwhitefoot 7y ago
    Probably because no one has one. At least in Norway the best you can do is reserve one by handing over your name and address, no indication of delivery date, no configurator.
rhizome 7y ago
I am highly excited for the VW "ID Buzz" eBus. https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/VWmediaIDbuzz.jpg https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/VWmediaIDbuz...

bryanlarsen 7y ago

> A properly engineered drivetrain will be able to sustain its launches over several back-to-back activations All cars designed primarily for the highway rather than the track have issues with brake heating, transmission fluid heating, et cetera, and slow down over time. The Model S is extreme in that manner, but the Model 3 slowdowns are are far less extreme than the S's limp mode. > NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating. Having the NHTSA say "A lack of evidence proving you're not the safest isn't the same as saying you are the safest" isn't really bad news or bad publicity. > The machines they ship will hit a number, and then they will hit that number again, and again, and again, and again. And that won't fade. It won't destroy the battery. It won't get nerfed with an over-the-air update a couple of months after hitting the market. The big manufacturers have been promising "Tesla killers" for a decade now. They've continually disappointed. This is Porsche's first production BEV. There will be compromises, they will make mistakes. It still might be a Tesla killer, substantially better than the new Tesla Roadster coming next year but up until they're shipping in volume and have had some time to shake out both cars are brochure-ware.

cmsonger 7y ago
> than the new Tesla Roadster coming next year I admire your optimism. I'll buy a 2020 roadster if it's anywhere close to what they describe and released any time soon; but I'm skeptical. (They also need to put a real steering wheel on it.) But I'm thinking it's not anywhere close to their top priority right now and that 2020 may end up being optimistic. But if they get it out there, it's targeted right on top of the 911 Turbo. Same price, same 2+2 configuration, higher performance, similar utility. Will be interesting to see what happens here. Too bad Tesla is trying to go downmarket. If they were staying more up-market I'd feel more confidence in this car coming out on time.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
nullwasamistake 7y ago
> All cars designed primarily for the highway rather than the track have issues with brake heating, transmission fluid heating, et cetera, and slow down over time. This doesn't include trucks which are a large part of the market. Being designed to haul, everything is oversized.

CrazyStat 7y ago

>Tesla has been doing the same sort of thing with "Safest car ever!" to the point that NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating. Ten months ago, though it has been in the news again the last few days as the letter and response were just released. The blog post in question is still up, which means the NHTSA either backed off after Tesla's response or hasn't yet been able to get a court to take their side.

xedeon 7y ago
Because those documents were from 2018 and nothing came out of it after Tesla responded with data and "facts" provided by NHTSA themselves.

dabeeeenster 7y ago

This is entirely conjecture. Why not wait until the car is actually available.

endorphone 7y ago

"Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick." I live in a rural exurb area. Every spring-fall weekend features parades of supercars of the various supercar clubs. Million dollar plus vehicles. All driving at 60km, driving no differently than the Corolla that accidentally turned into their procession. Because it's all party tricks. These people aren't racing these cars, but are just sitting on potential. As an aside, I don't remember Tesla ever claiming that their vehicles were the "fastest production car", which is normally a measure of top speed. The Tesla has a positively mediocre top speed compared to supercars, and on any longer run will be demolished. It isn't built for repeat launches, or a quick lap at Nürburgring. But if you want a very confident merge on the highway, pass on the single lane highway, etc, it can confidently provide what you need. As an aside, all lithium ion batteries are degraded by high drain (similarly they are degraded by fast charging). Porsche is seeming buying the exact same technology in LG packs. They have identical issues that Tesla does. If you launch a P100d without ludicrous mode you'll do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.

martin_bech 7y ago
Exact same what? Teslas batteries are Panasonic, not LG.
- endorphone 7y ago
  Sorry, exact same technology. If LG were using some new process, chemistry, technology, etc, it would be interesting, but otherwise it is effectively fungible.
nullwasamistake 7y ago
High drain isn't the problem, most lithium ion can be drained at 15-50C (drain rate not temperature) until empty without being harmed. P100D is 100kw/h battery, which should be able to put out at least 1500 hp continuously. The problem is 100% Tesla's cooling system not being powerful enough.
- davidgould 7y ago
  Not all lithium ion can be drained at high rates like that. There is a trade off of safety, lifetime, energy density and power density (discharge rate). For instance the RC helicopter batteries are rated for 100C+, but are notorious for fires and short life time. As it happens, the RC photo drones are easier on the batteries and want longer run times so there are batteries that have higher energy density but can only handle 20C. A lot of e-bike packs are built from 1650 batteries and these are best off when limited to 3C. I'd imagine the priorities of a car battery are similar.

rconti 7y ago

I don't disagree with a lot of your points, but seriously, the Model S is ancient tech in the EV world. As someone who actually GOES to racetracks, last time I was at Laguna, we had 4 Model 3s and 2 S. Absolutely the S has overheating issues. They're also very old.