11 ms·

Glad to see competition finally coming around. That said I still wonder if they're holding back here to not cannibalize other lines. The 0-60 in the 3.5s range

• clouddrover 7y ago
  If you try to drive a Tesla Model S like a performance car it just overheats: https://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/this-video-reminds-us-that-the-tesla-model-s-is-an-awful-track-car https://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/this-video-reminds-us-tha... https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-tesla-model-s-can-do-around-the-nurburgrin-1600644908 https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-tesla-model-s-can-do-aroun... Here's a Model S losing to a Nissan Leaf over 14 laps: https://insideevs.com/news/359903/video-nissan-leaf-beats-tesla-model-s/ https://insideevs.com/news/359903/video-nissan-leaf-beats-te... Porsche doesn't want to be in line with that.
  • mikeash 7y ago
    The performance version of the Model 3 does 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and by all reports it’s an excellent track car.
    • clouddrover 7y ago
      The Taycan has done sub-8 minutes at the Nürburgring Nordscheleife according to Mark Webber (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohHEdaRhF1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohHEdaRhF1k). What's the Model 3's best time?
      • Grazester 7y ago
        Sub 8 minutes? I wonder where they started and ended their stopwatch also what kind of tires used. Edited://
        • clouddrover 7y ago
          > Sub 8 seconds? No.
          • Grazester 7y ago
            I am sorry. I meant sub 8 minutes. I edited my post
      • supakeen 7y ago
        The Model 3 doesn't have an official time at the Nürburgring (for as far as that being an actual thing). It was the fastest EV around Laguna Seca last december: https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/tesla-model-3-performance-becomes-fastest-production-ev-around-laguna-seca/ https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/tesla-model-3-performance-... Here's a video of a Model 3 doing around 9 minutes per lap without track mode and during Turistenfahrt at the Nürburgring : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3IHb8RFV_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3IHb8RFV_g
      • xedeon 7y ago
        0-60 times is a more useful metric as 99% of real people drive cars on public roads. Nürburgring "times" is more of an impractical wet dream for most people who mention it.
    • navigatesol 7y ago
      Can you point to some of these reports? I can't seem to find any official times for major tracks. But it looks like the model 3 is right in line with some competition, like the BMW M3.
      • mikeash 7y ago
        I've just seen commenters on the internet who have tracked their cars. You can search "model 3 track performance" for plenty of articles.
  • steelframe 7y ago
    Oops, you've accidentally presented hard facts criticizing Tesla in a tech forum and have been summarily downvoted! Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick. It produces a number to prop up a marketing blurb. "Fastest production car ever!" Tesla has been doing the same sort of thing with "Safest car ever!" to the point that NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating. The devil really is in the details though. A properly engineered drivetrain will be able to sustain its launches over several back-to-back activations. This is precisely what the Porsche team has accomplished. The machines they ship will hit a number, and then they will hit that number again, and again, and again, and again. And that won't fade. It won't destroy the battery. It won't get nerfed with an over-the-air update a couple of months after hitting the market. This is what automotive engineering excellence looks like, and it's great to finally see it in an electric vehicle.
    • davewritescode 7y ago
      100% agree with you, I feel like I get treated like a luddite when I tell people I’m not really a huge fan of Tesla. I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game.
      • bryanlarsen 7y ago
        > I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game. So was I. The Audi e-tron was supposed to be that, but I've been massively disillusioned by it's horrible efficiency, high price and inability to produce in volume.
        • jaxn 7y ago
          The E-Tron specs aren't up to par, so the Taycan looks like it will be the first real contender. At least in some aspects. It will be interesting to see what Audi's semi-autonomous stuff is like in the real world. If it's on par with Tesla's, then they may be able to fix the e-tron specs in v2. I was convinced my next car was going to be an Audi, but maybe a BMW. I had a string of VWs and loved German cars. Then my 2.0T blew up with the faulty timing chain (prior to the recall, but we it was obvious there was a systemic problem). VW didn't fix it. I now drive a Tesla Model 3. Currently there is nothing else close on the market. The Germans definitely lost at least one sale to me.
  • lazyjones 7y ago
    > If you try to drive a Tesla Model S like a performance car it just overheats That's the 2014/2015 models. Has anyone tested more recent ones?
  • ratsbane 7y ago
    For a fair comparison, perhaps it would be better to look at more recent reporting. Those first two articles are from 2016 and 2014 and the third one (written a few weeks ago) describes a contest between a 2014 Model S and a "New, modified" 2019 Leaf. The first Google result I see for "Model 3 Performance Overheat" is this one - and it describes how the car did NOT overheat: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-performance-autobahn-high-speed-test-video/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-performance-autobahn...
  • pmorici 7y ago
    That is the old model S being discussed there. The “Raven” P100D has an updated battery pack and motor.
  • xedeon 7y ago
    Let's see, you're comparing a full sized EV sedan that was was developed in 2012 and was designed to be as practical as possible with still awesome performance range and storage. Just an anecdote..I bought an 8 foot door from Lowe's and it comfortably fits in my Model S by just folding the rear seats. Even the store attendants were amazed and took several pics while we were loading it (also fits in a Mode 3 btw). A performance Model 3 is more suited for track purposes since it's a newer design. Here it is being driven at the track by the legendary Randy Pobst: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aywleQX5lyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aywleQX5lyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfWbdk28azQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfWbdk28azQ Even then, the Model 3 is based on a 2016 design, while the Taycan is still actively being developed. So not really sure what argument you're trying to point out here.
• navigatesol 7y ago
  Because 0-60 times are just one facet of performance. Why aren't Tesla dominating Formula E? Or hill climbing?
  • Lendal 7y ago
    Most people buying these things know the only performance thing they'll ever do with the car is a straight launch from a stop at an intersection. They won't ever be needing high-G turning ability on a city street, nor any other maneuver that would be too dangerous on a city street with pedestrians and bicyclists around. Tesla seems to have played their cards very well.
    • mprev 7y ago
      In the US maybe.
    • sorokod 7y ago
      Most people buying these things know the only performance thing they'll ever do with the car is a straight launch from a stop at an intersection Is that true? I would have thought that the most Tesla owners care about is how far they can project their image of wealth and sofistication
      • tonyedgecombe 7y ago
        and how "environmentally conscious" they are.
      • hw 7y ago
        I would have thought that the most Tesla owners care about is how far they can project their image of wealth and sofistication Unless you're getting the high end variants of the S and 3, it's not really projecting wealth and sophistication, but rather the opposite. I bought a Model 3 because it just makes more sense financially than say getting a BMW 3 series.
        • ratsbane 7y ago
• kszxgz 7y ago
  My impression is that German car brands usually do not focus as much on 0-60 accelaration as much as Tesla does. Especially for a Porsche, it's more about handling than drag race performance.
  • jayd16 7y ago
    The 0-60 and full torque marketing is what Tesla needed to make electric cars cool. I'm glad we can talk about more boring things like consistency now.
• quattrofan 7y ago
  Did you pay attention? They said it's about repeatability and not reducing battery of power train life like Tesla does.
• Ididntdothis 7y ago
  0-60 is pretty useless and easy to achieve. Good handling is much harder to achieve and requires more development. I would expect a Porsche to handle much better than tesla.
  • endorphone 7y ago
    Acceleration is the one performance metric that drivers push daily, whether it's merging on the highway, passing, or just a thrill from the light. It is a bit disingenuous to say that it's "easy to achieve" given how it has long been the metric of supercars.
    • Ididntdothis 7y ago
      To get good acceleration you just need a big engine, traction and not much else. 0-60 is not even that meaningful for real world use of acceleration. 30-70 would be much more useful there.
      • endorphone 7y ago
        This sort of reductionism can be used for anything. To get good handling, you just need good traction and a low center of gravity. To get good top speeds you just need good top speed. To go to Mars you just need a big rocket. Traditionally obtaining good acceleration has been incredibly difficult. Larger engines yield a heavier vehicle in a vicious cycle. Makers like Lamborghini would reduce their cars to just shells, use esoteric materials if it could shed tiny amounts of weight, and then would spend enormous engineering trying to obtain more power from smaller engines (not bigger engines, more powerful, lighter engines). To casually dismiss this is just entirely untrue. Tesla made a big deal about acceleration because it comes essentially for free with electric engines that have incredible low end torque curves. They made a big, 5000lb, full featured, 5-seat sedan and they still could give it acceleration that blew away what million dollar supercars had been fighting to do for decades. And now we're all tut-tutting that Porsche might possibly make something that's kind of similarly capable in a car that will likely cost much more and seat two. Great.
• davewritescode 7y ago
  They’re also stressing repeatability of 0-60 acceleration where Tesla reports 0-60 on nearly full batteries. The Model3 performance consistency is better than the model s because they improved the cooling system but performance drops off quickly after a couple of runs. I expect the Porsche to deliver consistent performance because that’s what they’ve been talking about for the last 3 years. Specifically, the referred to “ludicrous mode” as a party trick.
  • gsnedders 7y ago
    Also Porsche are fairly well known for being very conservative with their published 0-60/62 numbers.
    • MrFoof 7y ago
      The reason for this is Porsche's 0-60/0-62 times are intended to be reproduced in less than ideal conditions, and with great repeat-ability For example, 105F/40C air temps on a concrete surface (low-friction) with some amount of sand. Or 15F/-10C on a concrete surface. And you can do that back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back... for an hour (with say 50 standing starts), non-stop. You'll see little variation in the result, and the car won't throw up its hands and say the party's over until it takes a rest. That's a a big difference from the Model S which doesn't allow launch control unless the batteries are in a specific temperature window (which is about 20C wide), in which it must prep (warm up or cool down) before it's ready go, or to go again. A prep that is usually measured in minutes, unless you happened to already be in that window. The Model 3s thermal management and cooling system is a huge step up from the Model S and Y, but Porsche (especially as you step further up a model line into the high end stuff) is probably THE brand known to go out on a track and stay out there longer than nearly any other brand before it needs to come in and cool down a bit. They're rather notorious for still under engineering and overbuilding their powertrains and braking systems, and a lot of tech trickling down from their motorsport efforts.
      • schwap 7y ago
        > And you can do that back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back... for an hour (with say 50 standing starts), non-stop. You'll see little variation in the result, and the car won't throw up its hands and say the party's over until it takes a rest. Funny you say that, Road & Track did exactly that in 2014 with a Porsche 911 Turbo[1] and they were able to do 61 back-to-back launches. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5DRCTW-Q7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5DRCTW-Q7o
• Shivetya 7y ago
  I really wish everyone was competing on range rather than acceleration. Range is the number one reason I went with a LR model 3. I don't give a rats ass about how fast it gets to speed. However it is nice to see an EV with range at least in Tesla territory, granted it still is 2012 territory. I posted before, no premium brand EV should sell anything under 300 miles EPA; I use EPA as it is the one returning the lowest in use numbers which makes it a bit better bet when you try to figure out winter driving numbers too. the real issue with EV adoption besides choice is if the average buyer has any real interest without incentives. I do hope the Porsche entry forces Tesla to revamp the S and X interior, the real fix they need is to remove road noise, specifically tires, which is the only issue I have with my 3. (Test drove a S75 so maybe they are better now, no idea)
  • carwyn 7y ago
    I really wish everyone was competing on efficiency. Most journeys require nowhere near the range capabilities of current EVs, instead carrying around excess weight when not required. Similarly on the acceleration side, other than showing off, why do we need cars that can do 0-60 in 2-3 seconds? Those kinds of g-forces are certainly not pleasant for passengers.
    • read_if_gay_ 7y ago
      I agree that nobody needs fast 0-60s but they’re just fun. Now, for the range thing, that’s no different from why you want a fast CPU even though 99% of the time you’re using 1% of its power, or why bridges are built to withstand many times their rated maximum load etc. You want to be prepared to deal with demanding situations. In this case that’s something like your family vacation that you maybe don’t want to buy an extra car for.
    • zarkov99 7y ago
      Acceleration is super fun and range is essential for a general purpose car. It sucks to have to plan your trip around super charger proximity.
    • CapricornNoble 7y ago
• kyleblarson 7y ago
  Does it really matter when 80% of these will be stuck in bumper to bumper traffic on 280 near Sand Hill Road?
  • bitL 7y ago
    Lower amount of exhaust gasses to "enjoy" in a proper traffic jam...
  • octorian 7y ago
    > Does it really matter when 80% of these will be stuck in bumper to bumper traffic The acceleration needed to get press coverage? Absolutely not. The other qualities of a good EV? Absolutely yes. Having driven a Tesla Model S for several years now, I have to say that it has the best low-speed handling of any car I've ever driven. You can control it's motion very precisely in the 0-5mph range (far better than any ICE I've ever driven), and "autopilot" can do most of the "bumper-to-bumper start-and-stop" grunt work for you. Of course none of this makes for a loud press release, so it rarely gets mentioned.
    • brokenmachine 7y ago
      "This car has reached the pinnacle of 0-5mph handling". You're right, not quite so sexy for the ads, lol. I agree, those things do make a difference. I drive a manual (stick) car with pretty rough low-speed handling. It is a bit unpleasant to drive in bad traffic.