4 ms·

People "on suicide watch" die all the time. It's not super rare.

by DanBC 7y ago

hume77 7y ago
Neither is corruption.
brador 7y ago
Name two.
- DanBC 7y ago
  https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/against-the-stream-intermittent-nurse-observations-of-inpatients-at-night-serve-no-purpose-and-cause-sleep-deprivation/BF2CD76D8F8970581ED48C7594E9A3C4# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/art... > Suicides between 23.00 h and 07.00 h are rare, and these overwhelmingly occur under intermittent observations. Such observation is purely a defensive intervention to document that a patient is safe at a particular time, as there is no engagement. I work with anonymised data. If you want actual names I'm going to have to trawl through coroner's reports. Or you could have a look at this, which says about 18 patients per year in the UK: https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=37570 https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=37570
  - brador 7y ago
    The UK and US have very different prison systems and prison protocols. I don't think their numbers can be compared. Additionally, Epstein was under suicide watch. Which should have made suicide practically impossible without outside intervention. Given the money and power at play here, murder made to look like a suicide is a very real possibility.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      Please read the links I supply which talk about patients in a hospital, but importantly these are patients under "suicide watch" -- this is what intermittent or continuous obs are for, to prevent suicide and self harm. People in this thread don't know what "suicide watch means". They seem to think it's 24 hour continuous monitoring. It may mean someone looks through a door hatch once every 15 minutes. But also, he may not have been on suicide watch: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-suicide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
- bjoli 7y ago
  I can only talk about Swedish jails, but suicide attempts where People are held before prosecution and before sentencing (called arrest and häkte) are common enough. Just random googling gives me this: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sjalvmordsforsok-sker-varje-vecka-i-svenska-hakten https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sjalvmordsforsok-sker-var... Saying that there is a suicide attempt every week in Swedish "Häkte", meaning about 52 attempts per year with an average of 9000 people in "häkte" over the course of one year. And that is only in the cases where people are actually prosecuted. There are lots of mentions of suicides in "arrest" as well.
ASalazarMX 7y ago
It's not super common either. He was a very high profile criminal, but also a potential witness against very high profile people. Special precautions should have been taken.
- tfha 7y ago
  And he was under 24/7 camera surveillance. If it was a clean suicide there should be video evidence.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    And wouldn't you know it? "Oops, camera malfunction. We'll investigate that, too..."
    - 2_listerine_pls 7y ago
      That's indeed what happened.
      - wellyeah 7y ago
        I believe you, but could you cite a source on there being a camera and it malfunctioning? Because damn, this is just getting truly impossible to believe it was just a suicide.
        2_listerine_pls 7y ago
        I shouldn't have affirm it. @michaelcoudrey tweeted it yesterday, without a source, and others followed.
- DanBC 7y ago
  Right, but "not super common" isn't "this is impossible". See eg Fred West.
TheAceOfHearts 7y ago
One of CNN's legal analysts said in a tweet [0] that he can't recall hearing of any successful suicides happening in the prison where Epstein was detained. I tried searching for reports or information about other suicides in Metropolitan Correctional Center - New York (MCC-NY) but wasn't able to find examples in the news. Admittedly, I didn't dig very deep and I'm completely unfamiliar with this domain. If you know of any sources showing examples of successful suicides in MCC-NY then I would be interested in learning about them. Ideally we could review the prison's records for successful and unsuccessful suicides when on suicide watch and during regular imprisonment. The Bureau of Justice Statistics website [1] looks like it should have relevant data on this, but I'm too tired to sift through their reports tonight. [0] https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status/1160224228232355841 https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status/1160224228232355841 [1] https://www.bjs.gov https://www.bjs.gov
- DanBC 7y ago
  > One of CNN's legal analysts said in a tweet [0] that he can't recall hearing of any successful suicides happening in the prison where Epstein was detained. We need to be clear how they define suicide, which may not include all self-inflicted death.

People "on suicide watch" die all the time. It's not super rare.

by DanBC 7y ago

People "on suicide watch" die all the time. It's not super rare.

hume77 7y ago

Neither is corruption.

brador 7y ago

Name two.

DanBC 7y ago
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/against-the-stream-intermittent-nurse-observations-of-inpatients-at-night-serve-no-purpose-and-cause-sleep-deprivation/BF2CD76D8F8970581ED48C7594E9A3C4# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/art... > Suicides between 23.00 h and 07.00 h are rare, and these overwhelmingly occur under intermittent observations. Such observation is purely a defensive intervention to document that a patient is safe at a particular time, as there is no engagement. I work with anonymised data. If you want actual names I'm going to have to trawl through coroner's reports. Or you could have a look at this, which says about 18 patients per year in the UK: https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=37570 https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=37570
- brador 7y ago
  The UK and US have very different prison systems and prison protocols. I don't think their numbers can be compared. Additionally, Epstein was under suicide watch. Which should have made suicide practically impossible without outside intervention. Given the money and power at play here, murder made to look like a suicide is a very real possibility.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    Please read the links I supply which talk about patients in a hospital, but importantly these are patients under "suicide watch" -- this is what intermittent or continuous obs are for, to prevent suicide and self harm. People in this thread don't know what "suicide watch means". They seem to think it's 24 hour continuous monitoring. It may mean someone looks through a door hatch once every 15 minutes. But also, he may not have been on suicide watch: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-suicide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
bjoli 7y ago
I can only talk about Swedish jails, but suicide attempts where People are held before prosecution and before sentencing (called arrest and häkte) are common enough. Just random googling gives me this: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sjalvmordsforsok-sker-varje-vecka-i-svenska-hakten https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sjalvmordsforsok-sker-var... Saying that there is a suicide attempt every week in Swedish "Häkte", meaning about 52 attempts per year with an average of 9000 people in "häkte" over the course of one year. And that is only in the cases where people are actually prosecuted. There are lots of mentions of suicides in "arrest" as well.

ASalazarMX 7y ago

It's not super common either. He was a very high profile criminal, but also a potential witness against very high profile people. Special precautions should have been taken.

tfha 7y ago
And he was under 24/7 camera surveillance. If it was a clean suicide there should be video evidence.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  And wouldn't you know it? "Oops, camera malfunction. We'll investigate that, too..."
  - 2_listerine_pls 7y ago
    That's indeed what happened.
    - wellyeah 7y ago
      I believe you, but could you cite a source on there being a camera and it malfunctioning? Because damn, this is just getting truly impossible to believe it was just a suicide.
      - 2_listerine_pls 7y ago
        I shouldn't have affirm it. @michaelcoudrey tweeted it yesterday, without a source, and others followed.
DanBC 7y ago
Right, but "not super common" isn't "this is impossible". See eg Fred West.

TheAceOfHearts 7y ago

One of CNN's legal analysts said in a tweet [0] that he can't recall hearing of any successful suicides happening in the prison where Epstein was detained. I tried searching for reports or information about other suicides in Metropolitan Correctional Center - New York (MCC-NY) but wasn't able to find examples in the news. Admittedly, I didn't dig very deep and I'm completely unfamiliar with this domain. If you know of any sources showing examples of successful suicides in MCC-NY then I would be interested in learning about them. Ideally we could review the prison's records for successful and unsuccessful suicides when on suicide watch and during regular imprisonment. The Bureau of Justice Statistics website [1] looks like it should have relevant data on this, but I'm too tired to sift through their reports tonight. [0] https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status/1160224228232355841 https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status/1160224228232355841 [1] https://www.bjs.gov https://www.bjs.gov

DanBC 7y ago
> One of CNN's legal analysts said in a tweet [0] that he can't recall hearing of any successful suicides happening in the prison where Epstein was detained. We need to be clear how they define suicide, which may not include all self-inflicted death.