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> DEF CON 27, arguably the world’s best known hacker convention. I would say that the CCC hacker conventions (esp the CCC congress always in December) are some

> DEF CON 27, arguably the world’s best known hacker convention. I would say that the CCC hacker conventions (esp the CCC congress always in December) are somewhat more famous (but that probably depends on cultural background), of a similar size, and "better" (depending on what aspects you want to compare it). But it's not really a competition anyway. Related to that, there is the CCC camp 2019 (https://events.ccc.de/camp/2019/ https://events.ccc.de/camp/2019/) (in Berlin) starting very soon. Probably there will be live streams. And btw, a while ago, you could buy a combi-ticket for both DEFCON and CCC camp, including the flight ticket, for either 1337$ or 1337€. If you have never been to such an event, I can really recommend to go to it. Actually I can only speak for the CCC and the Dutch events; I heard that the community and mood is much more friendly and open on CCC-like events, compared to DEFCON, and also the focus is much more widespread, e.g. it's also kind of an art event, similar to Burning Man. That trends shown in the traffic graphics are really interesting. It seems JavaScript are less interesting to hackers, and Python is more. What hackers are using today is often what the remaining technical world will use tomorrow. In a similar way, I observed that around 10 years ago, Apple hardware became very dominant on such hacker events (I feel like maybe 80% of the computers (of course I don't have exact numbers on that)). But in the recent years, that totally vanished. It's very clearly the minority now. Apple does not produce the preferred hardware for hackers anymore.

drawnwren 7y ago
I'm curious what the dominant hardware at these events is now.
- gbrown 7y ago
  I'm betting many flavors of Linux running on many flavors of laptop.
- albertzeyer 7y ago
  I don't really observed some dominant hardware anymore. From the software side, Linux of course is very much dominant now. Otherwise you see a bit MacOSX, and also OpenBSD, FreeBSD, or more exotic things. Windows is rare, and people even feel ashamed to show that they use Windows. But that was more extreme earlier, and slowly becomes more accepted. Maybe more now with Windows Subsystem for Linux.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    Not at all. Running Windows is a sign that you're willing to run a substandard OS with no good toolchains and low/no privacy. And none of the Linux attacks that rely on hardware/firmware stuff works on Windows system for Linux. I can load up instances of Linux catered to specific ideas (Tails, Buscador, RadioInstigator, etc) and they will just work. Now we also know how to handle windows, especially when we break into machines and networks with Windows clients and/or AD. Most orgs don't understand even how windows runs, so they get it wrong unsurprisingly.
- hackandtrip 7y ago
  Speaking about the CCC, I'd say the MacBook remains in the top-2, but the Thinkpads are clearly prominent.
- arianvanp 7y ago
  Thinkpad T or X series
enneff 7y ago
I would have loved to go to camp again this time but they only distributed tickets through hacker spaces, none of which I am affiliated with. Sad.
- albertzeyer 7y ago
  Yes, me too. It's getting too famous, and too much people want to go, and the space they rented just did not allow for more people. Not sure how to resolve this. They should maybe get some bigger space, but maybe that it not so simple. There are some smaller events (also organized by CCC) which can maybe be an alternative. Maybe the next Dutch camp (next after https://sha2017.org/ https://sha2017.org/) does not have this problem (I hope).
  - ackbar03 7y ago
    Honestly I think people should go to the one in Beijing if they have the means to, they held the first one in China this year and it was f'ing amazing. It was held in a old oil storage tanker and had a evening session with live djs and performances. Best event I've ever been to hands down. And the Chinese hacker community is a force to be reckoned with
    - goliatone 7y ago
      Could you post a link to the event?
      - ackbar03 7y ago
        https://pandaily.com/def-con-and-baidu-security-nurturing-chinas-hacker-community/ https://pandaily.com/def-con-and-baidu-security-nurturing-ch... https://www.defcon.org/html/dc-china-1/dc-cn-1-venue.html https://www.defcon.org/html/dc-china-1/dc-cn-1-venue.html I wish they had more photos of the thing. And don't confuse it with defcon China Beta which was in 2018. They really sunk a lot of money into this event apparently, hopefully next year will be as good
    - albertzeyer 7y ago
strictnein 7y ago
Disagree with your assessment that CCC is more well known than DEFCON. Maybe in Europe that's the case? DEFCON has 2x the attendees. This would be tough to fully figure out who's right, but just doesn't seem to be the case, imo. Also, there's a lot more going on at DEFCON than just hacking. There's art, music, gatherings of all types, etc.
- mavihs 7y ago
  Not to compare CCC and DEFCON, but there are quite a few "non-hacking" things going on at CCC. I was there last year and was surprised to see such a diverse background of attendees—ranging from humanities, arts, to hardcore hackers. In my personal experience I've never seen this kind of a diversity within one event. Overall it was an amazing experience. Although, a little knowledge of German would have been helpful :)
- kerng 7y ago
  CCC covers more society and political topics as well, beyond the topics mentioned above which CCC also had plenty of last time I went. Regarding attendees, I am not sure - haven't been Defcon in a few years (mostly as it started being not so well organized), but went to CCC and that was gigantic in scale.
- albertzeyer 7y ago
  Hm, maybe in USA DEFCON is more well known. I was aware while writing this that this is probably debatable (but I was disagreeing with the assessment that DEFCON is clearly the best known, as said in the article). (Also, I'm clearly seeing now that it is indeed very debatable, as the votes for this comment go up and down all the time.) W.r.t. attendees, I am not sure. CCC has multiple events per year, and is also a club with many members. The biggest of their events it the CCC congress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress) which has attendees in a similar order, maybe slightly less, but that is only one of multiple events. I have heard from people attending both events (DEFCON and CCC) that CCC is much more diverse in topics and what's happening at the events.
  - 7y ago
cat199 7y ago
> but that probably depends on cultural background yes, pretty sure this breaks down by culture/geography

drawnwren 7y ago

I'm curious what the dominant hardware at these events is now.

gbrown 7y ago
I'm betting many flavors of Linux running on many flavors of laptop.
albertzeyer 7y ago
I don't really observed some dominant hardware anymore. From the software side, Linux of course is very much dominant now. Otherwise you see a bit MacOSX, and also OpenBSD, FreeBSD, or more exotic things. Windows is rare, and people even feel ashamed to show that they use Windows. But that was more extreme earlier, and slowly becomes more accepted. Maybe more now with Windows Subsystem for Linux.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  Not at all. Running Windows is a sign that you're willing to run a substandard OS with no good toolchains and low/no privacy. And none of the Linux attacks that rely on hardware/firmware stuff works on Windows system for Linux. I can load up instances of Linux catered to specific ideas (Tails, Buscador, RadioInstigator, etc) and they will just work. Now we also know how to handle windows, especially when we break into machines and networks with Windows clients and/or AD. Most orgs don't understand even how windows runs, so they get it wrong unsurprisingly.
hackandtrip 7y ago
Speaking about the CCC, I'd say the MacBook remains in the top-2, but the Thinkpads are clearly prominent.
arianvanp 7y ago
Thinkpad T or X series

enneff 7y ago

I would have loved to go to camp again this time but they only distributed tickets through hacker spaces, none of which I am affiliated with. Sad.

albertzeyer 7y ago
Yes, me too. It's getting too famous, and too much people want to go, and the space they rented just did not allow for more people. Not sure how to resolve this. They should maybe get some bigger space, but maybe that it not so simple. There are some smaller events (also organized by CCC) which can maybe be an alternative. Maybe the next Dutch camp (next after https://sha2017.org/ https://sha2017.org/) does not have this problem (I hope).
- ackbar03 7y ago
  Honestly I think people should go to the one in Beijing if they have the means to, they held the first one in China this year and it was f'ing amazing. It was held in a old oil storage tanker and had a evening session with live djs and performances. Best event I've ever been to hands down. And the Chinese hacker community is a force to be reckoned with
  - goliatone 7y ago
    Could you post a link to the event?
    - ackbar03 7y ago
      https://pandaily.com/def-con-and-baidu-security-nurturing-chinas-hacker-community/ https://pandaily.com/def-con-and-baidu-security-nurturing-ch... https://www.defcon.org/html/dc-china-1/dc-cn-1-venue.html https://www.defcon.org/html/dc-china-1/dc-cn-1-venue.html I wish they had more photos of the thing. And don't confuse it with defcon China Beta which was in 2018. They really sunk a lot of money into this event apparently, hopefully next year will be as good
  - albertzeyer 7y ago

strictnein 7y ago

Disagree with your assessment that CCC is more well known than DEFCON. Maybe in Europe that's the case? DEFCON has 2x the attendees. This would be tough to fully figure out who's right, but just doesn't seem to be the case, imo. Also, there's a lot more going on at DEFCON than just hacking. There's art, music, gatherings of all types, etc.

mavihs 7y ago
Not to compare CCC and DEFCON, but there are quite a few "non-hacking" things going on at CCC. I was there last year and was surprised to see such a diverse background of attendees—ranging from humanities, arts, to hardcore hackers. In my personal experience I've never seen this kind of a diversity within one event. Overall it was an amazing experience. Although, a little knowledge of German would have been helpful :)
kerng 7y ago
CCC covers more society and political topics as well, beyond the topics mentioned above which CCC also had plenty of last time I went. Regarding attendees, I am not sure - haven't been Defcon in a few years (mostly as it started being not so well organized), but went to CCC and that was gigantic in scale.
albertzeyer 7y ago
Hm, maybe in USA DEFCON is more well known. I was aware while writing this that this is probably debatable (but I was disagreeing with the assessment that DEFCON is clearly the best known, as said in the article). (Also, I'm clearly seeing now that it is indeed very debatable, as the votes for this comment go up and down all the time.) W.r.t. attendees, I am not sure. CCC has multiple events per year, and is also a club with many members. The biggest of their events it the CCC congress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress) which has attendees in a similar order, maybe slightly less, but that is only one of multiple events. I have heard from people attending both events (DEFCON and CCC) that CCC is much more diverse in topics and what's happening at the events.
- 7y ago

cat199 7y ago

> but that probably depends on cultural background yes, pretty sure this breaks down by culture/geography