6 ms·

On the post, if Linus is referring to low-end Xeon and workstation non-Xeon lacking ECC, I think it's completely idiotic. Nearly all infrastructure should be ba

On the post, if Linus is referring to low-end Xeon and workstation non-Xeon lacking ECC, I think it's completely idiotic. Nearly all infrastructure should be baking in ECC as standard rather than some "option" to not have silent, unknowable, probabilistic corruption that is realistically realizable on a near-daily basis given the orders of magnitude of network, storage and computational volumes of today (and the future) by ever lower tiers of end-users and common examples of network infrastructure. DEFCON 19: Bit-squatting: DNS Hijacking Without Exploitation (w speaker) https://youtu.be/aT7mnSstKGs https://youtu.be/aT7mnSstKGs

drewg123 7y ago
The sad thing is that I have seen signs of AMD starting to do the same. When I was shopping for a motherboard lately, I've begun seen motherboard manuals that state "ECC is only supported with PRO CPUs." See http://asrock.pc.cdn.bitgravity.com/Manual/X570%20Phantom%20Gaming-ITXTB3.pdf http://asrock.pc.cdn.bitgravity.com/Manual/X570%20Phantom%20...
- agapon 7y ago
  I think taht Picasso is actually an APU (CPU+graphics) and before Ryzen/Zen they never supported ECC. So, I think that ECC is for PRO APUs is an improvement.
  - drewg123 7y ago
    I guess it depends on what "supported" means in the context of the mobo. I'm always afraid its going to mean that I cannot enable scrubbing, etc, if the cpu is not "supported"
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    > before Ryzen/Zen they never supported ECC Incorrect; there were a bunch of AM3(+) boards which advertised ECC support back in the day. The IMC of AMD's desktop processors always supported ECC if I'm not mistaken.
    - agapon 7y ago
      AM3 is not for APUs, though. FM2 is.
- wokkel 7y ago
  As far as i know this is only true for APUs. Cpus without a gpu don't have this limitation. Also most mobo manufacturers don't seem to emphasise any ECC features as there are no RGB lights on any of the available DIMMs I assume.
  - gameswithgo 7y ago
    you can retrofit the rgb don’t worry!
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  Key word “supported”. AMD's consumer chips have ECC enabled but it is not validated.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    what does enabled but not validated mean?
    - aarongolliver 7y ago
      Basically that you can't return the chip to AMD if ecc doesn't work.
    - theevilsharpie 7y ago
      ECC DRAM support is physically present in the chip, and will work if the motherboard supports it, but it's _up_ to the motherboard to support it. Some Ryzen motherboards are marketed explicitly as having ECC DRAM support (e.g., ASRock Rack X470D4U, ASUS Pro WS X570-ACE). Other Ryzen motherboards have ECC DRAM support, but they don't advertise it as a feature for one reason or another (most of ASRock's motherboard lineup, many mid-range ASUS motherboards, possibly others). Still others completely lack ECC support (many low-end boards, as well as high-end gaming-focused boards). > what does enabled but not validated mean? Basically, it means that it's optional. As described above, ECC can work or not work depending on which specific motherboard you get, and it's up to the system integrator to choose a motherboard compatible with ECC if that's a desired feature. That's as opposed to "validated" ECC support in, say, AMD's Threadripper platform. In that case, if a company builds and markets a motherboard as compatible with Threadripper, and it lacks ECC support, they can expect to receive a nasty letter from AMD's legal team.
      - tsuraan 7y ago
        > That's as opposed to "validated" ECC support in, say, AMD's Threadripper platform. In that case, if a company builds and markets a motherboard as compatible with Threadripper, and it lacks ECC support, they can expect to receive a nasty letter from AMD's legal team. Are you sure about that? I'm only asking because the System76 Threadripper Thelio[0] doesn't support ECC (according to the response I received from their support people). Their response was actually that "Threadripper and our motherboard do not offer ECC" (TR obviously does support it though), but is it the case that they're actually contractually obligated to support ECC? [0] - https://system76.com/cart/configure/thelio-major-r1 https://system76.com/cart/configure/thelio-major-r1
- mtgx 7y ago
  Same goes for memory and virtualization encryption. They should be standard consumer features. SEM "sort of" is, but I believe it's not enabled by default on many BIOSes, and SEV is reserved to Epyc. In a time that even Windows 10 has Windows Sandbox and Edge App Guard as consumer-centric virtualization features, supporting virtualization encryption is starting to make more sense. And of course there are all the "pro" people that were already playing with VMs on their machines. Granted, SEV seems kind of broken/insecure, but I'd still like to see an improvement version coming to consumer Ryzen within the next-generation or two. It coming to Zen 3 chips would probably be ideal, because I don't think AMD will be able to show yet another impressive increase in performance with them, as they will remain on a 7nm process, and Zen 3 itself is supposed to be more of an iteration to Zen 2 anyway. This way at least they can lure people with "more security features", as well as other features like AV1 hardware decoding/encoding support.
marmaduke 7y ago
> low-end Xeon and workstation non-Xeon lacking ECC To be fair the single socket, low core count Xeons are not that pricey unless you try to match clock speed with the consumer chips... But, priorities, right?
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  Intel's blocking of ECC features is entirely arbitrary and artificial, the dies themselves already support it, they just disable it for consumer chips.
  - marmaduke 7y ago
    Ah I see, that's a different thing entirely
willis936 7y ago
I found the studies that this video (17:15) uses to establis a real world DRAM BER. https://tezzaron.com/media/soft_errors_1_1_secure.pdf https://tezzaron.com/media/soft_errors_1_1_secure.pdf https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf You’ll note that the papers were published in 2004 and 2009, respectively. Here is a paper from 2015 that paints a more accurate picture of hardware used today. https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~gurumurthi/papers/asplos15.pdf https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~gurumurthi/papers/asplos15.pdf Apparently these studies have strange ways to present data and do not give straight “BER per bit per second”, which I would think is the most useful metric. Without spending all day learning the jargon of this specific field, I think I can conclude, at a glance, that DDR4 has a lower BER than DDR3. The numbers matter, and I don’t know how serious of an issue it is currently. Without that knowledge its impossible to speak on the efficacy of more proliferated ECC in DRAM.
blattimwind 7y ago
> On the post, if Linus is referring to low-end Xeon and workstation non-Xeon lacking ECC, I think it's completely idiotic. I have said it before, I'll say it again, it is completely moronic that literally all storage and every bus in your computer uses FEC or at least uses checksums, except main memory and the memory bus.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  OK, devil's advocate here. Intel wants to segment it to make money. Perfecty rational, right? Also consumers want it that way as ECC needs extra bits and run a few percent slower. If gamers are willing to overclock their CPUs then they probably don't much care for slower memory. And $cost. I agree with you, but others have different priorities. (not an intel shill BTW)
  - dooglius 7y ago
    > If gamers are willing to overclock their CPUs then they probably don't much care for slower memory. And $cost. Then they can continue to buy and use non-ECC memory
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      That was my point.
      - dooglius 7y ago
        Intel supporting ECC RAM would not preclude them from doing so
wmf 7y ago
Coincidentally, a Xeon NUC with ECC just leaked; maybe Intel's strategy is changing. http://www.fanlesstech.com/2019/08/the-very-first-xeon-nuc.html http://www.fanlesstech.com/2019/08/the-very-first-xeon-nuc.h...

drewg123 7y ago

The sad thing is that I have seen signs of AMD starting to do the same. When I was shopping for a motherboard lately, I've begun seen motherboard manuals that state "ECC is only supported with PRO CPUs." See http://asrock.pc.cdn.bitgravity.com/Manual/X570%20Phantom%20Gaming-ITXTB3.pdf http://asrock.pc.cdn.bitgravity.com/Manual/X570%20Phantom%20...

agapon 7y ago
I think taht Picasso is actually an APU (CPU+graphics) and before Ryzen/Zen they never supported ECC. So, I think that ECC is for PRO APUs is an improvement.
- drewg123 7y ago
  I guess it depends on what "supported" means in the context of the mobo. I'm always afraid its going to mean that I cannot enable scrubbing, etc, if the cpu is not "supported"
- blattimwind 7y ago
  > before Ryzen/Zen they never supported ECC Incorrect; there were a bunch of AM3(+) boards which advertised ECC support back in the day. The IMC of AMD's desktop processors always supported ECC if I'm not mistaken.
  - agapon 7y ago
    AM3 is not for APUs, though. FM2 is.
wokkel 7y ago
As far as i know this is only true for APUs. Cpus without a gpu don't have this limitation. Also most mobo manufacturers don't seem to emphasise any ECC features as there are no RGB lights on any of the available DIMMs I assume.
- gameswithgo 7y ago
  you can retrofit the rgb don’t worry!
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
Key word “supported”. AMD's consumer chips have ECC enabled but it is not validated.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  what does enabled but not validated mean?
  - aarongolliver 7y ago
    Basically that you can't return the chip to AMD if ecc doesn't work.
  - theevilsharpie 7y ago
    ECC DRAM support is physically present in the chip, and will work if the motherboard supports it, but it's _up_ to the motherboard to support it. Some Ryzen motherboards are marketed explicitly as having ECC DRAM support (e.g., ASRock Rack X470D4U, ASUS Pro WS X570-ACE). Other Ryzen motherboards have ECC DRAM support, but they don't advertise it as a feature for one reason or another (most of ASRock's motherboard lineup, many mid-range ASUS motherboards, possibly others). Still others completely lack ECC support (many low-end boards, as well as high-end gaming-focused boards). > what does enabled but not validated mean? Basically, it means that it's optional. As described above, ECC can work or not work depending on which specific motherboard you get, and it's up to the system integrator to choose a motherboard compatible with ECC if that's a desired feature. That's as opposed to "validated" ECC support in, say, AMD's Threadripper platform. In that case, if a company builds and markets a motherboard as compatible with Threadripper, and it lacks ECC support, they can expect to receive a nasty letter from AMD's legal team.
    - tsuraan 7y ago
      > That's as opposed to "validated" ECC support in, say, AMD's Threadripper platform. In that case, if a company builds and markets a motherboard as compatible with Threadripper, and it lacks ECC support, they can expect to receive a nasty letter from AMD's legal team. Are you sure about that? I'm only asking because the System76 Threadripper Thelio[0] doesn't support ECC (according to the response I received from their support people). Their response was actually that "Threadripper and our motherboard do not offer ECC" (TR obviously does support it though), but is it the case that they're actually contractually obligated to support ECC? [0] - https://system76.com/cart/configure/thelio-major-r1 https://system76.com/cart/configure/thelio-major-r1
mtgx 7y ago
Same goes for memory and virtualization encryption. They should be standard consumer features. SEM "sort of" is, but I believe it's not enabled by default on many BIOSes, and SEV is reserved to Epyc. In a time that even Windows 10 has Windows Sandbox and Edge App Guard as consumer-centric virtualization features, supporting virtualization encryption is starting to make more sense. And of course there are all the "pro" people that were already playing with VMs on their machines. Granted, SEV seems kind of broken/insecure, but I'd still like to see an improvement version coming to consumer Ryzen within the next-generation or two. It coming to Zen 3 chips would probably be ideal, because I don't think AMD will be able to show yet another impressive increase in performance with them, as they will remain on a 7nm process, and Zen 3 itself is supposed to be more of an iteration to Zen 2 anyway. This way at least they can lure people with "more security features", as well as other features like AV1 hardware decoding/encoding support.

marmaduke 7y ago

> low-end Xeon and workstation non-Xeon lacking ECC To be fair the single socket, low core count Xeons are not that pricey unless you try to match clock speed with the consumer chips... But, priorities, right?

throwaway2048 7y ago
Intel's blocking of ECC features is entirely arbitrary and artificial, the dies themselves already support it, they just disable it for consumer chips.
- marmaduke 7y ago
  Ah I see, that's a different thing entirely

willis936 7y ago

I found the studies that this video (17:15) uses to establis a real world DRAM BER. https://tezzaron.com/media/soft_errors_1_1_secure.pdf https://tezzaron.com/media/soft_errors_1_1_secure.pdf https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf You’ll note that the papers were published in 2004 and 2009, respectively. Here is a paper from 2015 that paints a more accurate picture of hardware used today. https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~gurumurthi/papers/asplos15.pdf https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~gurumurthi/papers/asplos15.pdf Apparently these studies have strange ways to present data and do not give straight “BER per bit per second”, which I would think is the most useful metric. Without spending all day learning the jargon of this specific field, I think I can conclude, at a glance, that DDR4 has a lower BER than DDR3. The numbers matter, and I don’t know how serious of an issue it is currently. Without that knowledge its impossible to speak on the efficacy of more proliferated ECC in DRAM.

blattimwind 7y ago

> On the post, if Linus is referring to low-end Xeon and workstation non-Xeon lacking ECC, I think it's completely idiotic. I have said it before, I'll say it again, it is completely moronic that literally all storage and every bus in your computer uses FEC or at least uses checksums, except main memory and the memory bus.

tempguy9999 7y ago
OK, devil's advocate here. Intel wants to segment it to make money. Perfecty rational, right? Also consumers want it that way as ECC needs extra bits and run a few percent slower. If gamers are willing to overclock their CPUs then they probably don't much care for slower memory. And $cost. I agree with you, but others have different priorities. (not an intel shill BTW)
- dooglius 7y ago
  > If gamers are willing to overclock their CPUs then they probably don't much care for slower memory. And $cost. Then they can continue to buy and use non-ECC memory
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    That was my point.
    - dooglius 7y ago
      Intel supporting ECC RAM would not preclude them from doing so

wmf 7y ago

Coincidentally, a Xeon NUC with ECC just leaked; maybe Intel's strategy is changing. http://www.fanlesstech.com/2019/08/the-very-first-xeon-nuc.html http://www.fanlesstech.com/2019/08/the-very-first-xeon-nuc.h...