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To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one. Economist Mariana Mazzucato famously wrote about this and more

To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one. Economist Mariana Mazzucato famously wrote about this and more in her book "The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Public vs. Private Sector Myths" which I highly recommend if you're interested. I think it's a little misguided to say that China's innovation is solely due to corporate espionage. States have always been effective at spurring innovation when it's needed. We only need to look as far back as America's highly productive and innovative war economy to see that

sprafa 7y ago
I didn’t say it was solely due to espionage, only gave an example I found interesting of how they use it for their benefit really.
seppin 7y ago
> To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one What does that have to do with what OP is talking about?
- macspoofing 7y ago
  He's trying to argue that America is like China.
  - fixitfixit 7y ago
    Whataboutism on articles about China is inevitable. Edit: downvote all you want, but that doesn’t make it false.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
  - TheKarateKid 7y ago
    Not sure why this is downvoted, as that's exactly what the commenter's point was.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  The original post seems to assert that >"The idea that we are competing with “free market” Chinese companies is a fiction that we’ve made up in our own minds" this fiction applies to a significant degree in the United States too.
  - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
    Also, if all the Chinese are doing is going and looking up all the publicly funded research then the system is working as intended, just as if they needed some kind of software and came back with something open source. There's no need for them to "steal" Microsoft's tech if they can get something suitable with a better licence.
    - TheKarateKid 7y ago
      Did you fully read the OP's comment? We're not talking software here -- we're talking hardware, engineering, and many other things that you don't just get a copy of the how-to's from open source projects.
      - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
        The claim is that the Chinese are copying stuff via industrial espionage. I get that. But Apple also sued Samsung for using rounded corners on a phone. So there's a lot of gray area in IP enforcement. A similar non-chinese example is the AV1 codec from Google or the Android compatibility with Java. Both are claimed to be IP theft by other western parties. I don't think either of those claims hold up, and I have no real reason to believe that China's violations are any more morally suspect without a lot more specifics. Modern IP enforcement has left me in a "boy who cried wolf" mentality when it comes to infringement. To be honest I'm more scared of China playing that game in a hardball manner than I am of them ignoring it.
        TheKarateKid 7y ago
        Apple, Samsung, Google, etc. may all have infringed at times, but their entire product and companies are not based off of infringement. Even in the products they infringe, the majority of it is their own. These Chinese companies literally clone the entire product. Entire businesses are based off theft.
gridlockd 7y ago
This is a meme that has been adopted by leftists wholesale. The basic premise is that since any innovation can be somehow tracked backed to government investment, the government is somehow responsible for most innovation. It disregards the whole process that is required to take insights from research into a real product. Yes, the internet was developed by the military. Only when private enterprise took over did it become valuable to society as a whole. Yes, the iPhone builds on technology that originated from public research, just like all the cellphones before it. However, it wasn't a government committee that decided how to assemble all these technologies into something that people were ready to pay $1000 for. We have lots of evidence that that the government is in fact a terrible entrepreneur that builds terrible products and services. One can point at the awful primary/secondary education, or at the DMV, or perhaps at the rollout of healthcare-dot-gov. Even the "communist" Chinese government understands that private enterprise is the way to economic prosperity, it just disagrees on the degree of state control.
- sprafa 7y ago
  True. I believe the idea is more that Government does a TON of basic R&D, while private industry is not that good at doing 10-20 year programs while Government can do pretty decent things with it. I don’t think it’s an either/or, it’s more of an argument against deciding government should leave all R&D to private industry, which might not be as good at it as a superficial analysis might make appear.
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  One could also argue the opposite, that commercializing an invention is much more obvious, faster and WAY CHEAPER step than inventing the tech need for it? And I agree with you that Government is a terrible entrepreneur, but that's actually a good thing, because its huge budgets and the lack of interest in making money out of it, is exactly what keeps pure science per science's sake projects alive. Lots of R&D that government finances has completely different goals than entrepreneurs would, like getting competitive advantages over foreign players or solving strategically important problems. No business person in their right mind would ever finance flying a man to moon, or research on distributed, fault-tolerant communication system for post-nuclear war world, nor anyone would be able to predict ahead all technologies that could come out of that research, it's impossible to do. So we need both steps for progress, both the government trowing tax payers money on seemingly silly R&D, and entrepreneurs looking for new ways to monetize it later.

sprafa 7y ago

I didn’t say it was solely due to espionage, only gave an example I found interesting of how they use it for their benefit really.

seppin 7y ago

> To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one What does that have to do with what OP is talking about?

macspoofing 7y ago
He's trying to argue that America is like China.
- fixitfixit 7y ago
  Whataboutism on articles about China is inevitable. Edit: downvote all you want, but that doesn’t make it false.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
- TheKarateKid 7y ago
  Not sure why this is downvoted, as that's exactly what the commenter's point was.
Barrin92 7y ago
The original post seems to assert that >"The idea that we are competing with “free market” Chinese companies is a fiction that we’ve made up in our own minds" this fiction applies to a significant degree in the United States too.
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
  Also, if all the Chinese are doing is going and looking up all the publicly funded research then the system is working as intended, just as if they needed some kind of software and came back with something open source. There's no need for them to "steal" Microsoft's tech if they can get something suitable with a better licence.
  - TheKarateKid 7y ago
    Did you fully read the OP's comment? We're not talking software here -- we're talking hardware, engineering, and many other things that you don't just get a copy of the how-to's from open source projects.
    - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
      The claim is that the Chinese are copying stuff via industrial espionage. I get that. But Apple also sued Samsung for using rounded corners on a phone. So there's a lot of gray area in IP enforcement. A similar non-chinese example is the AV1 codec from Google or the Android compatibility with Java. Both are claimed to be IP theft by other western parties. I don't think either of those claims hold up, and I have no real reason to believe that China's violations are any more morally suspect without a lot more specifics. Modern IP enforcement has left me in a "boy who cried wolf" mentality when it comes to infringement. To be honest I'm more scared of China playing that game in a hardball manner than I am of them ignoring it.
      - TheKarateKid 7y ago
        Apple, Samsung, Google, etc. may all have infringed at times, but their entire product and companies are not based off of infringement. Even in the products they infringe, the majority of it is their own. These Chinese companies literally clone the entire product. Entire businesses are based off theft.

gridlockd 7y ago

This is a meme that has been adopted by leftists wholesale. The basic premise is that since any innovation can be somehow tracked backed to government investment, the government is somehow responsible for most innovation. It disregards the whole process that is required to take insights from research into a real product. Yes, the internet was developed by the military. Only when private enterprise took over did it become valuable to society as a whole. Yes, the iPhone builds on technology that originated from public research, just like all the cellphones before it. However, it wasn't a government committee that decided how to assemble all these technologies into something that people were ready to pay $1000 for. We have lots of evidence that that the government is in fact a terrible entrepreneur that builds terrible products and services. One can point at the awful primary/secondary education, or at the DMV, or perhaps at the rollout of healthcare-dot-gov. Even the "communist" Chinese government understands that private enterprise is the way to economic prosperity, it just disagrees on the degree of state control.

sprafa 7y ago
True. I believe the idea is more that Government does a TON of basic R&D, while private industry is not that good at doing 10-20 year programs while Government can do pretty decent things with it. I don’t think it’s an either/or, it’s more of an argument against deciding government should leave all R&D to private industry, which might not be as good at it as a superficial analysis might make appear.
ivanhoe 7y ago
One could also argue the opposite, that commercializing an invention is much more obvious, faster and WAY CHEAPER step than inventing the tech need for it? And I agree with you that Government is a terrible entrepreneur, but that's actually a good thing, because its huge budgets and the lack of interest in making money out of it, is exactly what keeps pure science per science's sake projects alive. Lots of R&D that government finances has completely different goals than entrepreneurs would, like getting competitive advantages over foreign players or solving strategically important problems. No business person in their right mind would ever finance flying a man to moon, or research on distributed, fault-tolerant communication system for post-nuclear war world, nor anyone would be able to predict ahead all technologies that could come out of that research, it's impossible to do. So we need both steps for progress, both the government trowing tax payers money on seemingly silly R&D, and entrepreneurs looking for new ways to monetize it later.