4 ms·

I frequently run this thought experiment in my head. The world's smartest chimp is as smart as a young child, maybe. Now imagine an alien race who are like us a

by vecter 7y ago

I frequently run this thought experiment in my head. The world's smartest chimp is as smart as a young child, maybe. Now imagine an alien race who are like us as we are to chimps. In the same way that we are unfathomably intelligent to chimps (so much so that they don't even understand how far the gap is between us and them), consider how scary it would be to encounter an alien that was that much smarter than humans are.

Smithalicious 7y ago
I think this only works if you consider intelligence only in relative terms. I like to think that humans have at least some "absolute" level of intelligence required to understand that another creature can be more intelligent than us, whereas chimps probably can't grasp that concept. So it'd be easier for humans, I reckon.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  "I think" ... "I like to think" ... "probably can't grasp" ... "I reckon" Oh come on! That's pure opinion based on what? Am I supposed to be swayed by that? And if you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonobos_Panbanisha_%26_Kanzi_with_Sue_Savage-Rumbaugh,_2006.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonobos_Panbanisha_%26_Ka... do you still feel that the chimps (bonobos) can't recognise SSR as being smarter in some way?
  - matharmin 7y ago
    It's thoughts in response to a thought experiment. Not every discussion needs to start with evidence.
cscurmudgeon 7y ago
One big difference: The chimp is not thinking about relative intelligence.
chibg10 7y ago
I'm not convinced a race that is vastly more intelligent at an individual-level than humans is necessarily a consummately more advanced race. It would seem like the age of a civilization and the size of its population (i.e. overall "human" capital) could mitigate a relative weakness in individual intelligence. Or perhaps another race's willingness to cooperate in large numbers. Or perhaps the motivation of civilizations to advance (e.g. a civilization that faces many existential threats may advance faster assuming it survives relatively unscathed; or maybe some other intelligent beings would be more inclined or less inclined to pursue civilizational advancement). I wonder if the relationship between societal/technological advancement and individual intelligence is not linear or even logarithmic; rather, it's important to have "enough" intelligence to engage in abstract inductive/deductive reasoning (maybe the ability to do mathematics beyond basic arithmetic), and after that level other factors such as those mentioned above are bigger contributors to civilizational advancement. We humans have far surpassed what a single individual can achieve by breaking problems into smaller and more intellectually manageable parts, which should be particularly evident to those us on HN working on software. It seems possible that the biological (biophysical?) limit for intelligence is far outstripped by the amount of complexity in the universe, making the civilizational utility obtained for marginal gains in individual intelligence rather low (i.e. since heavy abstraction will always be needed, the size of the "abstraction chunks" is just one of many other factors). On the other hand, we on HN are also well-positioned to observe the efficiency lost when systems progress to the point where no single human understands them, so I see the counterargument to my own points as well. It would be fascinating to live in a time where the answer to this question would be knowable, but I don't have my hopes up :)
marci 7y ago
Human Intelligence vs Alien Intelligence - Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhaE3w5QCGg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhaE3w5QCGg
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Honestly after his last tweet about how we shouldn’t bother trying to regulate guns he’s a tough sell for me
  - marci 7y ago
    The one where he ends with "As an educator, I personally value knowing with precision and accuracy what reaction anything that I say (or write) will instill in my audience, and I got this one wrong." ? edit: it's actually a link to a facebook note https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/1158295335799873536 https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/1158295335799873536 -> https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/tweetstorm/10157492889446613/ https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/tweetstor...
  - qazpot 7y ago
    Honestly after this last reply I discredit everything you say in future as well.
jayd16 7y ago
I wonder if such a thing as unfathomably intelligent (compared to humans) could evolve. Are humans still evolving or does a certain level of civilization stunt evolution by mitigating selection pressure? Perhaps there's a natural ceiling to intelligence and civilization? Its fun to think about.
mettamage 7y ago
Fun fact: chimps have a better working memory than humans. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXP8qeFF6A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXP8qeFF6A

by vecter 7y ago

Smithalicious 7y ago

I think this only works if you consider intelligence only in relative terms. I like to think that humans have at least some "absolute" level of intelligence required to understand that another creature can be more intelligent than us, whereas chimps probably can't grasp that concept. So it'd be easier for humans, I reckon.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tempguy9999 7y ago
"I think" ... "I like to think" ... "probably can't grasp" ... "I reckon" Oh come on! That's pure opinion based on what? Am I supposed to be swayed by that? And if you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonobos_Panbanisha_%26_Kanzi_with_Sue_Savage-Rumbaugh,_2006.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonobos_Panbanisha_%26_Ka... do you still feel that the chimps (bonobos) can't recognise SSR as being smarter in some way?
- matharmin 7y ago
  It's thoughts in response to a thought experiment. Not every discussion needs to start with evidence.

cscurmudgeon 7y ago

One big difference: The chimp is not thinking about relative intelligence.

chibg10 7y ago

I'm not convinced a race that is vastly more intelligent at an individual-level than humans is necessarily a consummately more advanced race. It would seem like the age of a civilization and the size of its population (i.e. overall "human" capital) could mitigate a relative weakness in individual intelligence. Or perhaps another race's willingness to cooperate in large numbers. Or perhaps the motivation of civilizations to advance (e.g. a civilization that faces many existential threats may advance faster assuming it survives relatively unscathed; or maybe some other intelligent beings would be more inclined or less inclined to pursue civilizational advancement). I wonder if the relationship between societal/technological advancement and individual intelligence is not linear or even logarithmic; rather, it's important to have "enough" intelligence to engage in abstract inductive/deductive reasoning (maybe the ability to do mathematics beyond basic arithmetic), and after that level other factors such as those mentioned above are bigger contributors to civilizational advancement. We humans have far surpassed what a single individual can achieve by breaking problems into smaller and more intellectually manageable parts, which should be particularly evident to those us on HN working on software. It seems possible that the biological (biophysical?) limit for intelligence is far outstripped by the amount of complexity in the universe, making the civilizational utility obtained for marginal gains in individual intelligence rather low (i.e. since heavy abstraction will always be needed, the size of the "abstraction chunks" is just one of many other factors). On the other hand, we on HN are also well-positioned to observe the efficiency lost when systems progress to the point where no single human understands them, so I see the counterargument to my own points as well. It would be fascinating to live in a time where the answer to this question would be knowable, but I don't have my hopes up :)

marci 7y ago

Human Intelligence vs Alien Intelligence - Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhaE3w5QCGg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhaE3w5QCGg

arcticbull 7y ago
Honestly after his last tweet about how we shouldn’t bother trying to regulate guns he’s a tough sell for me
- marci 7y ago
  The one where he ends with "As an educator, I personally value knowing with precision and accuracy what reaction anything that I say (or write) will instill in my audience, and I got this one wrong." ? edit: it's actually a link to a facebook note https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/1158295335799873536 https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/1158295335799873536 -> https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/tweetstorm/10157492889446613/ https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/tweetstor...
- qazpot 7y ago
  Honestly after this last reply I discredit everything you say in future as well.

jayd16 7y ago

I wonder if such a thing as unfathomably intelligent (compared to humans) could evolve. Are humans still evolving or does a certain level of civilization stunt evolution by mitigating selection pressure? Perhaps there's a natural ceiling to intelligence and civilization? Its fun to think about.

mettamage 7y ago

Fun fact: chimps have a better working memory than humans. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXP8qeFF6A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXP8qeFF6A