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Thankfully, the trend seems to be towards a much greater tolerance of vacation time and an increased willingness to actually take vacation. I credit the millenn

Thankfully, the trend seems to be towards a much greater tolerance of vacation time and an increased willingness to actually take vacation. I credit the millennials for this new attitude, as their clout in the workplace gradually supplants the tedious boomer philosophy that time off of any kind is something to be avoided at all costs. And the author makes a good point that giving workers time off can reveal things about your organization. They mention sussing out a morale-sinking middle-manager, but you could also view it is a general stress test for your team/company. It's good to know if one or two absences slow things to a halt, or if one individual is too indispensable to be gone for even a few days. After all, people get ill, injured or just quit from time to time. Better to have periodic absences be a natural part of your organization that you learn to handle, instead of crisis every time.

glitchcrab 7y ago
My company gives us unlimited time off - provided your team isn't going to be left with too few people then you just stick it in the calendar. It's incredibly liberating not having to plan your holidays to ensure you stay within X days, not having to request approval etc.
- alistairSH 7y ago
  Curious, how much vacation do your peers at the company take each year? Rough guess is fine. I ask because I've heard that "unlimited vacation" actually results in LESS vacation being taken because employees are afraid to be seen as the one abusing the system (even though taking 4+ week/year should be norm). Somewhat related, I loathe the trend of grouping sick and vacation time into a single bucket (for those in the EU, in the US, if you're sick you have to burn leave, the concept of "you're sick, stay home" doesn't really exist).
  - DanFeldman 7y ago
    It's easy to not take enough vacation at companies w/ unlimited vacation. Anecdotally, most of my peers at companies w/ unlimited vacation take less vacation than traditionally counted vacation days. I work at a place w/ unlimited vacation and take about 4-4.5 weeks per year. A big reason I actually get to take this much vacation is because our founders & senior leadership also take vacation. I could easily see a world where our sr leadership didn't take any time off and there was implicit pressure to not use vacation time.
    - gregspies 7y ago
      That 4-4.5 weeks is less than the minimum amount of time I'm allowed to take off (not sure if it's strictly required but HR would start chasing me). Assuming weekends are taken off by default, 4.5 weeks is about 23 days, which is quite far down this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...
      - Ididntdothis 7y ago
        Looking at this table the best countries in terms of leave are muslim countries. Lots of public holidays.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      I get 4 weeks guaranteed and I make sure to take them. In Germany I had 6 weeks. If “unlimited” translates to 4 and you feel lucky that you actually get that much then “unlimited” feels like a scam to guilt trip people into less vacation and not having to pay out any when people leave. I guess you also don’t accrue any for a longer trip if you take off less one year.
    - Aaargh20318 7y ago
      4 weeks is the legal minimum where I live, so that doesn’t seem like a lot at all. Also, the problem with unlimited vacation days is that you don’t get paid for unused days when you quit your job.
      - ghaff 7y ago
        I suspect that's one of the driving factors at tech companies where many people hop between jobs every couple of years or so. The difference adds up for companies, especially if people don't take a lot of vacation anyway. Personally, I've tended to stay at jobs for substantial periods of time although I've still gotten fairly nice vacation payouts on a couple of occasions. (Once and I think the statute of limitations is probably up on this one given the company doesn't exist--I got laid off in the dot-bomb era almost immediately after returning from a 3 week vacation I hadn't quite gotten around to entering yet.)
  - CuriouslyC 7y ago
    I have unlimited vacation and I clock in about 8-10 weeks a year. It isn't true vacation though, because I'm still on the hook to put out fires, and my teammates are accidental pyromaniacs.
    - hombre_fatal 7y ago
      That just sounds like you work remotely for 8-10 weeks.
      - CuriouslyC 7y ago
        I work remotely all the time, I tell my co-workers to leave me alone except in emergencies for 8-10. Sadly my coworkers are firestarters. I really need better coworkers...
  - xur17 7y ago
    > Curious, how much vacation do your peers at the company take each year? Rough guess is fine. I worked at a place with unlimited vacation in the past, and took ~4 weeks per year. To be honest, if anything, my boss pushed me to take more. In the end I really think it comes down to your boss.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      I heard a funny story from a senior guy at one of the big Bay Area tech companies (that has "unlimited" vacation) a little while back. They apparently hired a new PR person who quit after about six months because she couldn't deal with the fact that the CEO took vacations and he really took vacations in the "I'm on vacation. Handle whatever it is without me." sort of sense. It was just so alien that it completely stressed her out.
      - mgkimsal 7y ago
        was that the thing that really stressed her out? or was every decision second-guessed once he got back? "handle things while I'm away" isn't as easy as it sounds if you're not supported in the decisions you make.
        ghaff 7y ago
        No idea. I have no personal knowledge of the situation. However I have no trouble believing (based on personal experience) that a lot of people aren't comfortable making "executive decisions" on their own. Yes, sometimes it's because they rightly fear potential consequences. But other times, they just don't want the responsibility.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    I worked at a company once with unlimited vacation but limited sick leave. Riddle me that.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Perhaps a cover-their-ass rule to fulfill legal requirement to offer a minimum number of hours/days of sick leave.
    - hermanradtke 7y ago
      Some states require a minimum amount of sick days that accrue on the books.
    - mistersquid 7y ago
      Typically, vacation requires advance notice. Sick time is on-demand.
  - PUDXGLVIZW 7y ago
    I want to chime in because I've never actually witnessed horror stories about "unlimited vacation" that people talk about. I'm now at my 2nd job with "unlimited vacation". The general consensus, based on discussion with my peers, is that they take 4 - 5 weeks. This matches my own experience. EDIT: Also to add, I have seen folks take more than that. Often these are senior people traveling to home countries that involve very long flights. They might take 6 - 8 a year.
  - glitchcrab 7y ago
    Rough guess would be around the 6 week mark. It may not be on traditional holidays per se, but I took a day off to help my parents fit CCTV last week - those individual days start to add up too. The company will tell you to take some time off if you're not taking enough.
  - P_I_Staker 7y ago
    > in the US, if you're sick you have to burn leave, the concept of "you're sick, stay home" doesn't really exist As always this depends where you work. There's reasons for removing "sick days", that aren't in the employees interest. I take 2-5 per year. For some people, if they have 10, they'd use 10. Kinda like how "unlimited vacation", can mean less vacation, as people don't want to be that guy, or hurt their career.
- CuriouslyC 7y ago
  I have this privilege also, but I find that it's kind of a double edged sword. I can take "vacations" whenever I want, but I can't completely escape work when I do. I've had teammates do things like request a push to prod over vacation, while not mentioning that the prod database had also undergone a pretty large schema change (with no documentation!), then basically beg me to fix it because performance reviews were coming up in a few days.
  - ferzul 7y ago
    How about if you're international? If there's a serious problem at work (and the bus number is one) I can't fix it because (a) it isn't legal to work while on leave (b) I'm overseas and it isn't legal to work on my visa. So if something goes won't, they're stuffed. at least that's they're fault.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      At least for Americans, (a) is presumably very uncommon and (b) is never really a problem in my experience. Even if you're on a tourist visa, answering a work email or phone call isn't an issue. (Attending a conference or setting up in a co-work space for a few days may be, depending on the country, of course.)
  - ghaff 7y ago
    It's admittedly less common than it used to be but sometimes you're vacationing somewhere that just doesn't have connectivity. Even leaving aside being off in the Himalayas or wherever, even a lot of areas in the western US like Death Valley have pretty limited coverage. And, if I'm backpacking, even if I have a cell signal there's not much I can do if it's not something I can fix with a few words based on what's in my brain. To the broader point though. I do find being mostly connected is largely a plus. It's easier to take time off when I know that I can do a bit of flexible work and can be reached when needed rather than being tethered to a network just in case. I have worked both ways over my career and I much prefer today.
  - glitchcrab 7y ago
    Then that is an issue with the company culture, processes and staffing. Holiday is holiday - I've never worked anywhere which would expect me to remain contactable whilst on holiday.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  But is there an enforced minimum? If not, UTO tends to NTO.
- Vinnl 7y ago
  Is that paid time off?
ghaff 7y ago
My understanding is that, at least historically, in finance there was some mandated time off based on the idea that if an individual were doing something sketchy, forcing them out of the office and offline for a couple of weeks might flush it out.
- dmurray 7y ago
  Still the case, or at least it's taught in compliance courses.
- fancyfish 7y ago
  Yeah it still exists and is called "block leave." While on block leave, you also have to stay signed out of all email and computer systems or the leave becomes invalidated. There's also "garden leave" for several months after leaving a job, where you're paid but can't work for a competitor/new job. Somehow it's supposed to prevent you sharing IP but I'm not sure it's effective at all, outside of being a long paid vacation.
ghaff 7y ago
I'd be hesitant to draw broader trends from the experience of devs and other exempt employees at large tech firms. Anecdotally, I tend to agree. When I took multi-week vacations earlier in my career, that seemed to be something of an outlier. I'm not sure that's as true today. One factor may be that, for better or worse, people can stay at least somewhat connected while on vacation. It used to be that traveling meant that it took a real effort to reach you. And if you were on vacation, you were pretty much incommunicado for the period. On the other hand, I'd be very hesitant to draw broader conclusions about the adult working population.
P_I_Staker 7y ago
> the tedious boomer philosophy that time off of any kind is something to be avoided at all costs Not just that, you're stealing from the company. I've seriously met people with this mentality.
jameshart 7y ago
Interesting - similar ‘antifragility’ concept as chaos testing. Better to discover the weaknesses and dependencies of your system by inducing a failure yourself than to learn about it when it’s imposed on you by chance.

glitchcrab 7y ago

My company gives us unlimited time off - provided your team isn't going to be left with too few people then you just stick it in the calendar. It's incredibly liberating not having to plan your holidays to ensure you stay within X days, not having to request approval etc.

alistairSH 7y ago
Curious, how much vacation do your peers at the company take each year? Rough guess is fine. I ask because I've heard that "unlimited vacation" actually results in LESS vacation being taken because employees are afraid to be seen as the one abusing the system (even though taking 4+ week/year should be norm). Somewhat related, I loathe the trend of grouping sick and vacation time into a single bucket (for those in the EU, in the US, if you're sick you have to burn leave, the concept of "you're sick, stay home" doesn't really exist).
- DanFeldman 7y ago
  It's easy to not take enough vacation at companies w/ unlimited vacation. Anecdotally, most of my peers at companies w/ unlimited vacation take less vacation than traditionally counted vacation days. I work at a place w/ unlimited vacation and take about 4-4.5 weeks per year. A big reason I actually get to take this much vacation is because our founders & senior leadership also take vacation. I could easily see a world where our sr leadership didn't take any time off and there was implicit pressure to not use vacation time.
  - gregspies 7y ago
    That 4-4.5 weeks is less than the minimum amount of time I'm allowed to take off (not sure if it's strictly required but HR would start chasing me). Assuming weekends are taken off by default, 4.5 weeks is about 23 days, which is quite far down this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      Looking at this table the best countries in terms of leave are muslim countries. Lots of public holidays.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    I get 4 weeks guaranteed and I make sure to take them. In Germany I had 6 weeks. If “unlimited” translates to 4 and you feel lucky that you actually get that much then “unlimited” feels like a scam to guilt trip people into less vacation and not having to pay out any when people leave. I guess you also don’t accrue any for a longer trip if you take off less one year.
  - Aaargh20318 7y ago
    4 weeks is the legal minimum where I live, so that doesn’t seem like a lot at all. Also, the problem with unlimited vacation days is that you don’t get paid for unused days when you quit your job.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      I suspect that's one of the driving factors at tech companies where many people hop between jobs every couple of years or so. The difference adds up for companies, especially if people don't take a lot of vacation anyway. Personally, I've tended to stay at jobs for substantial periods of time although I've still gotten fairly nice vacation payouts on a couple of occasions. (Once and I think the statute of limitations is probably up on this one given the company doesn't exist--I got laid off in the dot-bomb era almost immediately after returning from a 3 week vacation I hadn't quite gotten around to entering yet.)
- CuriouslyC 7y ago
  I have unlimited vacation and I clock in about 8-10 weeks a year. It isn't true vacation though, because I'm still on the hook to put out fires, and my teammates are accidental pyromaniacs.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    That just sounds like you work remotely for 8-10 weeks.
    - CuriouslyC 7y ago
      I work remotely all the time, I tell my co-workers to leave me alone except in emergencies for 8-10. Sadly my coworkers are firestarters. I really need better coworkers...
- xur17 7y ago
  > Curious, how much vacation do your peers at the company take each year? Rough guess is fine. I worked at a place with unlimited vacation in the past, and took ~4 weeks per year. To be honest, if anything, my boss pushed me to take more. In the end I really think it comes down to your boss.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    I heard a funny story from a senior guy at one of the big Bay Area tech companies (that has "unlimited" vacation) a little while back. They apparently hired a new PR person who quit after about six months because she couldn't deal with the fact that the CEO took vacations and he really took vacations in the "I'm on vacation. Handle whatever it is without me." sort of sense. It was just so alien that it completely stressed her out.
    - mgkimsal 7y ago
      was that the thing that really stressed her out? or was every decision second-guessed once he got back? "handle things while I'm away" isn't as easy as it sounds if you're not supported in the decisions you make.
      - ghaff 7y ago
        No idea. I have no personal knowledge of the situation. However I have no trouble believing (based on personal experience) that a lot of people aren't comfortable making "executive decisions" on their own. Yes, sometimes it's because they rightly fear potential consequences. But other times, they just don't want the responsibility.
- philwelch 7y ago
  I worked at a company once with unlimited vacation but limited sick leave. Riddle me that.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Perhaps a cover-their-ass rule to fulfill legal requirement to offer a minimum number of hours/days of sick leave.
  - hermanradtke 7y ago
    Some states require a minimum amount of sick days that accrue on the books.
  - mistersquid 7y ago
    Typically, vacation requires advance notice. Sick time is on-demand.
- PUDXGLVIZW 7y ago
  I want to chime in because I've never actually witnessed horror stories about "unlimited vacation" that people talk about. I'm now at my 2nd job with "unlimited vacation". The general consensus, based on discussion with my peers, is that they take 4 - 5 weeks. This matches my own experience. EDIT: Also to add, I have seen folks take more than that. Often these are senior people traveling to home countries that involve very long flights. They might take 6 - 8 a year.
- glitchcrab 7y ago
  Rough guess would be around the 6 week mark. It may not be on traditional holidays per se, but I took a day off to help my parents fit CCTV last week - those individual days start to add up too. The company will tell you to take some time off if you're not taking enough.
- P_I_Staker 7y ago
  > in the US, if you're sick you have to burn leave, the concept of "you're sick, stay home" doesn't really exist As always this depends where you work. There's reasons for removing "sick days", that aren't in the employees interest. I take 2-5 per year. For some people, if they have 10, they'd use 10. Kinda like how "unlimited vacation", can mean less vacation, as people don't want to be that guy, or hurt their career.
CuriouslyC 7y ago
I have this privilege also, but I find that it's kind of a double edged sword. I can take "vacations" whenever I want, but I can't completely escape work when I do. I've had teammates do things like request a push to prod over vacation, while not mentioning that the prod database had also undergone a pretty large schema change (with no documentation!), then basically beg me to fix it because performance reviews were coming up in a few days.
- ferzul 7y ago
  How about if you're international? If there's a serious problem at work (and the bus number is one) I can't fix it because (a) it isn't legal to work while on leave (b) I'm overseas and it isn't legal to work on my visa. So if something goes won't, they're stuffed. at least that's they're fault.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    At least for Americans, (a) is presumably very uncommon and (b) is never really a problem in my experience. Even if you're on a tourist visa, answering a work email or phone call isn't an issue. (Attending a conference or setting up in a co-work space for a few days may be, depending on the country, of course.)
- ghaff 7y ago
  It's admittedly less common than it used to be but sometimes you're vacationing somewhere that just doesn't have connectivity. Even leaving aside being off in the Himalayas or wherever, even a lot of areas in the western US like Death Valley have pretty limited coverage. And, if I'm backpacking, even if I have a cell signal there's not much I can do if it's not something I can fix with a few words based on what's in my brain. To the broader point though. I do find being mostly connected is largely a plus. It's easier to take time off when I know that I can do a bit of flexible work and can be reached when needed rather than being tethered to a network just in case. I have worked both ways over my career and I much prefer today.
- glitchcrab 7y ago
  Then that is an issue with the company culture, processes and staffing. Holiday is holiday - I've never worked anywhere which would expect me to remain contactable whilst on holiday.
dredmorbius 7y ago
But is there an enforced minimum? If not, UTO tends to NTO.
Vinnl 7y ago
Is that paid time off?

ghaff 7y ago

My understanding is that, at least historically, in finance there was some mandated time off based on the idea that if an individual were doing something sketchy, forcing them out of the office and offline for a couple of weeks might flush it out.

dmurray 7y ago
Still the case, or at least it's taught in compliance courses.
fancyfish 7y ago
Yeah it still exists and is called "block leave." While on block leave, you also have to stay signed out of all email and computer systems or the leave becomes invalidated. There's also "garden leave" for several months after leaving a job, where you're paid but can't work for a competitor/new job. Somehow it's supposed to prevent you sharing IP but I'm not sure it's effective at all, outside of being a long paid vacation.

ghaff 7y ago

I'd be hesitant to draw broader trends from the experience of devs and other exempt employees at large tech firms. Anecdotally, I tend to agree. When I took multi-week vacations earlier in my career, that seemed to be something of an outlier. I'm not sure that's as true today. One factor may be that, for better or worse, people can stay at least somewhat connected while on vacation. It used to be that traveling meant that it took a real effort to reach you. And if you were on vacation, you were pretty much incommunicado for the period. On the other hand, I'd be very hesitant to draw broader conclusions about the adult working population.

P_I_Staker 7y ago

> the tedious boomer philosophy that time off of any kind is something to be avoided at all costs Not just that, you're stealing from the company. I've seriously met people with this mentality.

jameshart 7y ago

Interesting - similar ‘antifragility’ concept as chaos testing. Better to discover the weaknesses and dependencies of your system by inducing a failure yourself than to learn about it when it’s imposed on you by chance.