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Fair reply, I understand and respect your point. On the other hand, the narrative set by this kind celebratory pieces is toxic. You shouldn’t have to be a hustl

Fair reply, I understand and respect your point. On the other hand, the narrative set by this kind celebratory pieces is toxic. You shouldn’t have to be a hustler to have more. Also I don’t think that an Etsy social media manager really fits that description you gave...

opportune 7y ago
Well, I agree and disagree. I think if you are already well off and you want more, the most just way to acquire that is through working more. But you're right that people struggling to get by, support their family, put themselves through school, etc. shouldn't be forced into taking on multiple part-time jobs or "side hustles" like delivering food or flipping clothes, and the two groups of people are not doing the same thing. One is self-actualization, the other is closer to survival.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  TBH and forgive me if I'm behaving condescendingly- but I can't understand the notion of self-actualization in the form of acquiring more wealth as the sole purpose of labor. What happens when your body breaks down, you are old, and you now withdraw from the money you've gained in order to pay your exhorbidant health fees (and they will be exhorbidant- that's the nature of getting old)? Will you lose your self-actualization after you've gone through the journey of life and reach the final chapter?
  - opportune 7y ago
    Well, it's more the fact that it allows you financial independence and there is a psychological benefit to running a business that you don't get working for a wage under someone else's leadership. Also since I am young it's not really like I am marrying myself to this business for life, I am sure once I have kids I would want to spend more time with them than selling shit on the internet. But selling shit on the internet is a great way to become financially stable once I do find other things I'd rather do. I assume other entrepreneurs have similar mindsets Like I said I also care about things like politics, I have academic interests, etc. it's just that given my life situation right now entrepreneurship is the most logical strategic path towards making my life better later on. Even if I never make a cent I'm still learning unique skills and having fun Also I'm not sure if you're american or not but if you have good insurance your health fees are unlikely to be exorbitant... It's a common misconception among non-americans on HN that all Americans are at risk of bankruptcy if they get sick. That does happen to a lot of people, way way more than it should, but in practice if you have good insurance you'll be fine
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
      I'm American and I'm also aware that once you're old enough you're expected to retire, but since american healthcare is tied to employment you also lose your good healthcare... Which leaves you medicare/medicaid, but there are limits to what they will cover also.
jp555 7y ago
"You shouldn’t have to be a hustler to have more." Are you suggesting people NOT be compensated based on the value they create?? that a person should not be allowed to work harder than the person next to them? So much for a fairer system...
- camillomiller 7y ago
  You should have more based on your hard work for the company that employs you and a fairer pay gap between the top of the ladder and the bottom ranks.
  - jp555 7y ago
    Based on how hard you worked? What if I’m low competence and have to work very hard to be average? Should I get paid more? If I become more competent and figure out how to do x with less effort, should I then be paid LESS? Utopian ideas never fit into the complex systems of reality. Europe is so proud of their “legal minimum wage”, while ignoring that in reality, the actual minimum wage is ZERO. That’s what the shocking numbers of unemployed European youth earn. I would suggest that market dynamism is much more important than equality. Currently Europe seems to prioritize the opposite, keeping everything exactly the way it always was, so no one has to change. But if there was more turnover in the market, it would matter much less who’s in the top 1%, because they won’t be there for long. But today the top families in Venice are the exact same families that were at the top 500 years ago.
sokoloff 7y ago
> You shouldn’t have to be a hustler to have more. Let's assume someone (for whatever personal reason) has a desire for "more" than their average/typical peer. Help me understand a better system to allocate resources than someone trying to create more value in exchange for taking home more value?
ghaff 7y ago
That article seems to conflate some things and its use of the trendy "side hustle" doesn't really help matters. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a side project or two to learn something new or just because you enjoy it--and maybe even make a few bucks. That's quite a bit different from trying to bootstrap a startup on the side that you throw every available spare hour into. (Nothing necessarily wrong with doing this but it's a very different proposition.)
jedberg 7y ago
> Also I don’t think that an Etsy social media manager really fits that description you gave. You don't know her family background. Most likely she comes from a well-off family who helps her out. Maybe she didn't come from wealth, but she probably had a family who could co-sign her apartment lease, give her some furniture, maybe show up with food every once in a while, take her shopping for clothes or buy her a new computer for Christmas. Stuff like that. That's the kind of person who can manage a side hustle.

opportune 7y ago

Well, I agree and disagree. I think if you are already well off and you want more, the most just way to acquire that is through working more. But you're right that people struggling to get by, support their family, put themselves through school, etc. shouldn't be forced into taking on multiple part-time jobs or "side hustles" like delivering food or flipping clothes, and the two groups of people are not doing the same thing. One is self-actualization, the other is closer to survival.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
TBH and forgive me if I'm behaving condescendingly- but I can't understand the notion of self-actualization in the form of acquiring more wealth as the sole purpose of labor. What happens when your body breaks down, you are old, and you now withdraw from the money you've gained in order to pay your exhorbidant health fees (and they will be exhorbidant- that's the nature of getting old)? Will you lose your self-actualization after you've gone through the journey of life and reach the final chapter?
- opportune 7y ago
  Well, it's more the fact that it allows you financial independence and there is a psychological benefit to running a business that you don't get working for a wage under someone else's leadership. Also since I am young it's not really like I am marrying myself to this business for life, I am sure once I have kids I would want to spend more time with them than selling shit on the internet. But selling shit on the internet is a great way to become financially stable once I do find other things I'd rather do. I assume other entrepreneurs have similar mindsets Like I said I also care about things like politics, I have academic interests, etc. it's just that given my life situation right now entrepreneurship is the most logical strategic path towards making my life better later on. Even if I never make a cent I'm still learning unique skills and having fun Also I'm not sure if you're american or not but if you have good insurance your health fees are unlikely to be exorbitant... It's a common misconception among non-americans on HN that all Americans are at risk of bankruptcy if they get sick. That does happen to a lot of people, way way more than it should, but in practice if you have good insurance you'll be fine
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    I'm American and I'm also aware that once you're old enough you're expected to retire, but since american healthcare is tied to employment you also lose your good healthcare... Which leaves you medicare/medicaid, but there are limits to what they will cover also.

jp555 7y ago

"You shouldn’t have to be a hustler to have more." Are you suggesting people NOT be compensated based on the value they create?? that a person should not be allowed to work harder than the person next to them? So much for a fairer system...

camillomiller 7y ago
You should have more based on your hard work for the company that employs you and a fairer pay gap between the top of the ladder and the bottom ranks.
- jp555 7y ago
  Based on how hard you worked? What if I’m low competence and have to work very hard to be average? Should I get paid more? If I become more competent and figure out how to do x with less effort, should I then be paid LESS? Utopian ideas never fit into the complex systems of reality. Europe is so proud of their “legal minimum wage”, while ignoring that in reality, the actual minimum wage is ZERO. That’s what the shocking numbers of unemployed European youth earn. I would suggest that market dynamism is much more important than equality. Currently Europe seems to prioritize the opposite, keeping everything exactly the way it always was, so no one has to change. But if there was more turnover in the market, it would matter much less who’s in the top 1%, because they won’t be there for long. But today the top families in Venice are the exact same families that were at the top 500 years ago.

sokoloff 7y ago

> You shouldn’t have to be a hustler to have more. Let's assume someone (for whatever personal reason) has a desire for "more" than their average/typical peer. Help me understand a better system to allocate resources than someone trying to create more value in exchange for taking home more value?

ghaff 7y ago

That article seems to conflate some things and its use of the trendy "side hustle" doesn't really help matters. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a side project or two to learn something new or just because you enjoy it--and maybe even make a few bucks. That's quite a bit different from trying to bootstrap a startup on the side that you throw every available spare hour into. (Nothing necessarily wrong with doing this but it's a very different proposition.)

jedberg 7y ago

> Also I don’t think that an Etsy social media manager really fits that description you gave. You don't know her family background. Most likely she comes from a well-off family who helps her out. Maybe she didn't come from wealth, but she probably had a family who could co-sign her apartment lease, give her some furniture, maybe show up with food every once in a while, take her shopping for clothes or buy her a new computer for Christmas. Stuff like that. That's the kind of person who can manage a side hustle.