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That was a very fair and insightful comment. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond intelligently and respectfully. Now, regarding physical models,

That was a very fair and insightful comment. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond intelligently and respectfully. Now, regarding physical models, you are assuming there is a universal truth or reality that is the same for everyone. And that is just a belief. I don't think you can force anyone to believe something. You are also free to believe in whatever you want to believe.

krapp 7y ago
>Now, regarding physical models, you are assuming there is a universal truth or reality that is the same for everyone. And that is just a belief. There appear to be universal constants which can be experimentally verified and whose attributes and behaviors remain consistent. In other words, the universe appears to have properties which can be known. There is no evidence that the fundamental nature or properties of reality change based on the beliefs of the individual observer. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that universal physical reality does exist, and that data gathered through repeated observation and measurement more accurately describes that reality than speculation without such evidence. >I don't think you can force anyone to believe something. Wasn't trying to. Just pointing out that the universe isn't arbitrary, and not all conjectures are equally valid. You can believe the moon is made of green cheese if you like, just don't expect to be taken seriously, because there is a vast amount of evidence that it isn't.
sls 7y ago
you say: > regarding physical models, you are assuming there is a universal truth or reality that is the same for everyone which is basically an axiom one must adopt to engage in science. E.g., here's the formulation found in the Wikipedia article "Philosophy of Science"[1]: > that there is an objective reality shared by all rational observers So if one wishes to engage in an inquiry that doesn't hold this axiom, it's of course a perfectly fine thing to do, but it's best for all concerned not to call it science or scientific. Many issues and lines of inquiry that are important to people aren't amenable to scientific inquiry, but it does nothing but harm to dissimulate. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science#Naturalism's_axiomatic_assumptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science#Naturali...
- ta1234567890 7y ago
  Physics already acknowledges that there is no universal truth. Maybe not with those words. All physical models depend on a "frame of reference". The most common one being the inertial frame of reference. They do that because it all depends on how and from where you look at something, which is just another way of saying that the models depend on an observer. Alternatively you could interpret that as there actually being some sort of universal truth, but then the experience of it is different for every single observer. And then again, you are the one picking an interpretation or belief over another.
  - krapp 7y ago
    The universal truth, in that case, is described by relativity. Different reference frames don't imply that the laws of physics differ between frames - in fact it's a fundamental axiom of special relativity that the laws of physics and speed of light are invariant (remain the same in all reference frames[0].) [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity
  - jcranmer 7y ago
    The terminology as understood in physics is not the same terminology that you're using. The term "frame of reference" refers to how you have to set up the equations and how you define values, for example physical coordinates of a location. It doesn't change the actual predictions of the evolution of a physical system (and if it did, that's generally a good sign that the model is missing something!). For example, you can model gravity in Newtonian mechanics on the surface of Earth as a force that pulls all objects down at a constant 9.8m/s^2 acceleration. Or you can step off the planet, and model the entire Earth as a closed gravitational system, and measure the gravitational attraction between the mass of the Earth and the things on or near its surface using F=G * m_e * m / r_e^2. When you get to relativity, you discover that the problem is that spacetime is defined in such a way that there is no well-defined global "ruler" or "clock" that applies independently to all observers, so that 1 meter or 1 second for me on Earth is not the same 1 meter or 1 second on a spaceship travelling at 0.2c. What is independent to all observers is the speed of light in a vacuum, and from these two facts, you can in fact derive how to map the definitions of how your rulers and clocks would be distorted if you moved to a different reference frame.
tsimionescu 7y ago
The hypothesis that there is no universal truth is self-defeating. It isn't necessarily wrong, but any deduction you would make from it meaningless, and if you truly choose to believe you should fall into solipsism. You yourself must believe in some universal truths, otherwise you would not attempt to communicate with other beings. So, in order to have any kind of discussion, you must start from a point where you believe that at least a large part of everyday experience (including other beings, their minds, physical objects, their interactions, our observation thereof and many others) exist in a meaningful sense, outside your own cognition. Now, any extrapolation from these base assumptions, is what we should think of as physics. For example, if I assume my eyes exist and my perception of the world is meaningful, then I must also conclude that the moon I see through a telescope exists to the same extent, and it's motion as I observe it exists, and I can search for explanations of that motion etc. If I were to not assume that my eyes perceive something which truly exists, I would have no reason to stand in front of a computer screen, hitting keys on my keyboard and watching the letters appear on the screen - it's possible in a very absolutist way, but it's simply not a productive way of looking at the world.
- pupe 7y ago
  You’re making some unwarranted assumptions about what it would take to make a reasonable statement about the world. For example: >> any deduction you would make from it meaningless Deduction is only one mode of argument, and it is actually used the least in practical decision making and action. Hypothesis testing follows inductive reasoning, which works by filling in knowledge based on observed effects and theorization about plausible causes. Abduction is applied when diagnosing illnesses, trying to triangulate upon a best fit from multiple vectors, including both known postulates and inferences drawn from speculation pertaining to observed effects. Deduction is useful on paper, and that’s why its most commonly employed in math land. But in the real world, induction and abduction are king. >> You yourself must believe in some universal truth otherwise you would not attempt to communicate with other beings That’s a false misconception about relativism, especially common among those who seem perpetually trapped in math land. If you want to learn more about this I highly recommend that you read Barry Barnes’ and David Bloor’s chapter titled Relativism, rationalism and the sociology of knowledge in Hollis and Lukes 1982 edited volume Rationality and Relativism.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
> Now, regarding physical models, you are assuming there is a universal truth or reality that is the same for everyone. And that is just a belief. Can we prove that the laws of physics are the same for everyone? No. That's an assumption. It seems to be a reasonable one, but it's an assumption. But we got to our current understanding of physical models from other ideas. [Edit: That is, other ideas of what the models should be.] How did we get here? By people believing other things, and them finding out experimentally that things didn't work that way, even for the people who believed that they did.
yiyus 7y ago
Force is a strong word. But if your model can be verified by independent experiments and make useful predictions, it is more likely that it will be considered a valid model by other people.

krapp 7y ago

>Now, regarding physical models, you are assuming there is a universal truth or reality that is the same for everyone. And that is just a belief. There appear to be universal constants which can be experimentally verified and whose attributes and behaviors remain consistent. In other words, the universe appears to have properties which can be known. There is no evidence that the fundamental nature or properties of reality change based on the beliefs of the individual observer. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that universal physical reality does exist, and that data gathered through repeated observation and measurement more accurately describes that reality than speculation without such evidence. >I don't think you can force anyone to believe something. Wasn't trying to. Just pointing out that the universe isn't arbitrary, and not all conjectures are equally valid. You can believe the moon is made of green cheese if you like, just don't expect to be taken seriously, because there is a vast amount of evidence that it isn't.

sls 7y ago

you say: > regarding physical models, you are assuming there is a universal truth or reality that is the same for everyone which is basically an axiom one must adopt to engage in science. E.g., here's the formulation found in the Wikipedia article "Philosophy of Science"[1]: > that there is an objective reality shared by all rational observers So if one wishes to engage in an inquiry that doesn't hold this axiom, it's of course a perfectly fine thing to do, but it's best for all concerned not to call it science or scientific. Many issues and lines of inquiry that are important to people aren't amenable to scientific inquiry, but it does nothing but harm to dissimulate. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science#Naturalism's_axiomatic_assumptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science#Naturali...

ta1234567890 7y ago
Physics already acknowledges that there is no universal truth. Maybe not with those words. All physical models depend on a "frame of reference". The most common one being the inertial frame of reference. They do that because it all depends on how and from where you look at something, which is just another way of saying that the models depend on an observer. Alternatively you could interpret that as there actually being some sort of universal truth, but then the experience of it is different for every single observer. And then again, you are the one picking an interpretation or belief over another.
- krapp 7y ago
  The universal truth, in that case, is described by relativity. Different reference frames don't imply that the laws of physics differ between frames - in fact it's a fundamental axiom of special relativity that the laws of physics and speed of light are invariant (remain the same in all reference frames[0].) [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity
- jcranmer 7y ago
  The terminology as understood in physics is not the same terminology that you're using. The term "frame of reference" refers to how you have to set up the equations and how you define values, for example physical coordinates of a location. It doesn't change the actual predictions of the evolution of a physical system (and if it did, that's generally a good sign that the model is missing something!). For example, you can model gravity in Newtonian mechanics on the surface of Earth as a force that pulls all objects down at a constant 9.8m/s^2 acceleration. Or you can step off the planet, and model the entire Earth as a closed gravitational system, and measure the gravitational attraction between the mass of the Earth and the things on or near its surface using F=G * m_e * m / r_e^2. When you get to relativity, you discover that the problem is that spacetime is defined in such a way that there is no well-defined global "ruler" or "clock" that applies independently to all observers, so that 1 meter or 1 second for me on Earth is not the same 1 meter or 1 second on a spaceship travelling at 0.2c. What is independent to all observers is the speed of light in a vacuum, and from these two facts, you can in fact derive how to map the definitions of how your rulers and clocks would be distorted if you moved to a different reference frame.

tsimionescu 7y ago

The hypothesis that there is no universal truth is self-defeating. It isn't necessarily wrong, but any deduction you would make from it meaningless, and if you truly choose to believe you should fall into solipsism. You yourself must believe in some universal truths, otherwise you would not attempt to communicate with other beings. So, in order to have any kind of discussion, you must start from a point where you believe that at least a large part of everyday experience (including other beings, their minds, physical objects, their interactions, our observation thereof and many others) exist in a meaningful sense, outside your own cognition. Now, any extrapolation from these base assumptions, is what we should think of as physics. For example, if I assume my eyes exist and my perception of the world is meaningful, then I must also conclude that the moon I see through a telescope exists to the same extent, and it's motion as I observe it exists, and I can search for explanations of that motion etc. If I were to not assume that my eyes perceive something which truly exists, I would have no reason to stand in front of a computer screen, hitting keys on my keyboard and watching the letters appear on the screen - it's possible in a very absolutist way, but it's simply not a productive way of looking at the world.

pupe 7y ago
You’re making some unwarranted assumptions about what it would take to make a reasonable statement about the world. For example: >> any deduction you would make from it meaningless Deduction is only one mode of argument, and it is actually used the least in practical decision making and action. Hypothesis testing follows inductive reasoning, which works by filling in knowledge based on observed effects and theorization about plausible causes. Abduction is applied when diagnosing illnesses, trying to triangulate upon a best fit from multiple vectors, including both known postulates and inferences drawn from speculation pertaining to observed effects. Deduction is useful on paper, and that’s why its most commonly employed in math land. But in the real world, induction and abduction are king. >> You yourself must believe in some universal truth otherwise you would not attempt to communicate with other beings That’s a false misconception about relativism, especially common among those who seem perpetually trapped in math land. If you want to learn more about this I highly recommend that you read Barry Barnes’ and David Bloor’s chapter titled Relativism, rationalism and the sociology of knowledge in Hollis and Lukes 1982 edited volume Rationality and Relativism.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

> Now, regarding physical models, you are assuming there is a universal truth or reality that is the same for everyone. And that is just a belief. Can we prove that the laws of physics are the same for everyone? No. That's an assumption. It seems to be a reasonable one, but it's an assumption. But we got to our current understanding of physical models from other ideas. [Edit: That is, other ideas of what the models should be.] How did we get here? By people believing other things, and them finding out experimentally that things didn't work that way, even for the people who believed that they did.

yiyus 7y ago

Force is a strong word. But if your model can be verified by independent experiments and make useful predictions, it is more likely that it will be considered a valid model by other people.