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Sounds like a big ol' Paleo-esque Appeal to Nature argument. > The current 'plant based' fad diet recommendations are backed up by some very poor science and m

by shlant 7y ago

Sounds like a big ol' Paleo-esque Appeal to Nature argument. > The current 'plant based' fad diet recommendations are backed up by some very poor science and may be seriously unsuitable for humans and for children in particular, nutrition-wise Care to provide evidence to back that up? Your broad, evolutionary talking points and observations on stomach pH in your other response hardly backs up your strongly worded supposition. Plant based diets have been practiced by not insignificant portions of the population beginning in the 6th-century BCE with Buddhism and Hinduism[1]. An estimated 20-40% of India is currently vegetarian[2]. Not sure "fad" is an accurate descriptor. I'm sure you'd have a hard time refuting the unending amount of "poor science" that shows plant based diets are effective for longevity, treating obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and high blood pressure[3]. The AICR recommends a plant based diet to prevent cancer[4], and ten other major Nutritional Organizations recognize the health benefits[5]. "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes."[5] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_vegetarianism#Ancient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_vegetarianism#Ancie... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India 3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/ 4. https://www.aicr.org/patients-survivors/healthy-or-harmful/vegetarian-and-vegan.html https://www.aicr.org/patients-survivors/healthy-or-harmful/v... 5. https://www.theplantway.com/is-vegan-healthy/ https://www.theplantway.com/is-vegan-healthy/

magduf 7y ago
>Plant based diets have been practiced by not insignificant portions of the population beginning in the 6th-century BCE with Buddhism and Hinduism. An estimated 20-40% of India is currently vegetarian. Not sure "fad" is an accurate descriptor. In terms of human history, he's right. 6th-century BCE was not very long ago at all: that's less than a mere 3000 years. Humans have been around for over 2 million years. Also, he's right about the skeletal record: archaeology shows that humans lost about 1 foot of height when they switched to agriculture. Yes, much of India is vegetarian, but Indians tend to be pretty short, but then when they emigrate to western nations and adopt more western diets, their kids end up dwarfing them.
- rajekas 7y ago
  I am Indian, I am vegan and was brought up vegetarian and I am not short. I am a foot taller than my parents. It has nothing to do with approximating western diets and everything to do with proper nutrition, vegetarian or not.
  - shlant 7y ago
    > everything to do with proper nutrition, vegetarian or not Exactly. It's like the unending articles that point to negligent "vegan" parents as the cause of child deaths/underdevelopment when they fed them super extreme, restrictive diets that just happen to be able to fit into the rules of veganism. You can get poor nutrition and technically follow the rules of many diets, but that isn't necessarily a reflection on the diets themselves, but on poor nutrition awareness.
- shlant 7y ago
  > In terms of human history, he's right. 6th-century BCE was not very long ago at all: that's less than a mere 3000 years. Humans have been around for over 2 million years. 3000 years is certainly long enough to take something out of "fad" status. I would challenge you to find another diet that follows specific rules that has been around for longer. > Also, he's right about the skeletal record: archaeology shows that humans lost about 1 foot of height when they switched to agriculture. Again - making broad, sweeping evolutionary correlations does not an argument make. You have absolutely no idea what specific shifts in eating, living or working habits resulted in skeletal changes. These are the same weak arguments proponents of the Paleo and Atkins diets make. Could you make a case for dietary changes effecting our evolution at the time? sure. Could you point to vegetarianism as the cause? Good luck with that. > Yes, much of India is vegetarian, but Indians tend to be pretty short, but then when they emigrate to western nations and adopt more western diets, their kids end up dwarfing them. Yet again with the generalizations. If we humor this for a moment, there is a much stronger argument for the correlation[3][4][5][6] of poverty levels[1] and height[2] than there is for levels of vegetarianism. In fact, there is data to show the opposite[7][8]. Poor diet in general results in impaired growth, not vegetarianism. I'm not even sure what you could argue would be missing in a vegetarian diet that would effect bone growth as most point to calcium in milk and vegetarians can drink milk... 1. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-the-population-living-in-extreme-poverty https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-the-population-l... 2. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-height-of-men https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-height-of-men 3. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0209170 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... 4. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-children-height-poverty/small-height-differences-among-kids-may-reflect-economic-disparities-idUSKCN0RR11720150927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-children-height-po... 5. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17880-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17880-3 6. https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/76/5/463.full.pdf https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/76/5/463.full.pdf 7. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1855500 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1855500 8. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9023462 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9023462

by shlant 7y ago

magduf 7y ago

>Plant based diets have been practiced by not insignificant portions of the population beginning in the 6th-century BCE with Buddhism and Hinduism. An estimated 20-40% of India is currently vegetarian. Not sure "fad" is an accurate descriptor. In terms of human history, he's right. 6th-century BCE was not very long ago at all: that's less than a mere 3000 years. Humans have been around for over 2 million years. Also, he's right about the skeletal record: archaeology shows that humans lost about 1 foot of height when they switched to agriculture. Yes, much of India is vegetarian, but Indians tend to be pretty short, but then when they emigrate to western nations and adopt more western diets, their kids end up dwarfing them.

rajekas 7y ago
I am Indian, I am vegan and was brought up vegetarian and I am not short. I am a foot taller than my parents. It has nothing to do with approximating western diets and everything to do with proper nutrition, vegetarian or not.
- shlant 7y ago
  > everything to do with proper nutrition, vegetarian or not Exactly. It's like the unending articles that point to negligent "vegan" parents as the cause of child deaths/underdevelopment when they fed them super extreme, restrictive diets that just happen to be able to fit into the rules of veganism. You can get poor nutrition and technically follow the rules of many diets, but that isn't necessarily a reflection on the diets themselves, but on poor nutrition awareness.
shlant 7y ago
> In terms of human history, he's right. 6th-century BCE was not very long ago at all: that's less than a mere 3000 years. Humans have been around for over 2 million years. 3000 years is certainly long enough to take something out of "fad" status. I would challenge you to find another diet that follows specific rules that has been around for longer. > Also, he's right about the skeletal record: archaeology shows that humans lost about 1 foot of height when they switched to agriculture. Again - making broad, sweeping evolutionary correlations does not an argument make. You have absolutely no idea what specific shifts in eating, living or working habits resulted in skeletal changes. These are the same weak arguments proponents of the Paleo and Atkins diets make. Could you make a case for dietary changes effecting our evolution at the time? sure. Could you point to vegetarianism as the cause? Good luck with that. > Yes, much of India is vegetarian, but Indians tend to be pretty short, but then when they emigrate to western nations and adopt more western diets, their kids end up dwarfing them. Yet again with the generalizations. If we humor this for a moment, there is a much stronger argument for the correlation[3][4][5][6] of poverty levels[1] and height[2] than there is for levels of vegetarianism. In fact, there is data to show the opposite[7][8]. Poor diet in general results in impaired growth, not vegetarianism. I'm not even sure what you could argue would be missing in a vegetarian diet that would effect bone growth as most point to calcium in milk and vegetarians can drink milk... 1. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-the-population-living-in-extreme-poverty https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-the-population-l... 2. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-height-of-men https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-height-of-men 3. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0209170 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... 4. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-children-height-poverty/small-height-differences-among-kids-may-reflect-economic-disparities-idUSKCN0RR11720150927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-children-height-po... 5. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17880-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17880-3 6. https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/76/5/463.full.pdf https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/76/5/463.full.pdf 7. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1855500 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1855500 8. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9023462 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9023462