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We didn't have universal healthcare when we stamped out polio, smallpox, or yellow fever. I don't know why you'd think it would stop us now. https://en.wikiped

We didn't have universal healthcare when we stamped out polio, smallpox, or yellow fever. I don't know why you'd think it would stop us now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diseases_eliminated_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diseases_eliminated_fr...

dougabug 7y ago
We had free vaccination of children at school, and opting out wasn’t common behavior. Also, the population was smaller and healthcare significantly cheaper.
afarrell 7y ago
We stamped those diseases out after thousands had contracted them.
phs318u 7y ago
Because at that time people didn’t distrust medical authorities like they do now (anti-vaxxers among others), and didn’t fear (as much) the other consequences of coming into contact with government agencies (incarceration/deportation).
- alfromspace 7y ago
  Oh goodness. Citation needed. And I'm curious whether you happen to be independently against deportation and incarceration. I suppose we'd better open the borders and prisons just to prevent disease, right? Or maybe there's a broader ideology at play here.
  - ziddoap 7y ago
    >"I suppose we'd better open the borders and prisons just to prevent disease, right?" That's one way to take something that no one is arguing for and turn it up to 11. At least try to argue in good faith. Edit: Found a source for you regarding trust in healthcare, for what it's worth. >A 2015 Pew study [...] We as a country have less faith in the medical system than we once did — trust was at 80 percent in 1973, and in 2016 it is 39 percent."[1] [1]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-their-institutions-anymore/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-th...
    - alfromspace 7y ago
      There's a tricky game being played. For instance, everyone is "against open borders", but they're for decriminalizing border crossing, against deporting anyone, and want free healthcare, housing, and education for everyone irrespective of legal presence. Then people cook up these theories about various forms of law enforcement supposedly promoting crime and disease by making people fearful of taking preventative actions, and we're expected to consider these arguments in isolation and believe you when you say "no one is arguing for" the thing every word you say argues for. Maybe you two should try arguing in good faith.
      - ziddoap 7y ago
        You asked for, and I supplied, a citation about trust in healthcare. What is bad faith about that? I don't know what any of the other border stuff or law enforcement theories your talking about has to do with trust in the healthcare system, but feel free to continue making noise about it. No one has said that open borders and no prisons prevents diseases.
        alfromspace 7y ago
        Why don't you tell us what your positions on those topics are? I'm trying to look below the surface here. I didn't see the citation when you first posted. I don't doubt it's valid, but the issue I had up the comment thread was with the theory that lowered faith in medical institutions is because of anti-vaxxers and fear of incarceration and deportation. Your source says nothing of the sort.
        ziddoap 7y ago
        I don't know what effect the fear of incarceration and deportation have in regards to lowering faith in medical institutions. I don't know if the folk who are against vaccination are the sole cause of eroding trust in healthcare, but given that healthcare trust is eroding and anti-vaccination believers are rising, it's not much of a stretch to think the two might be related. What I do know is that according to the study I linked, trust in healthcare has fallen quite a bit and that is likely to hinder our ability to slow an outbreak. I called you out for bad faith, not because of your position on the topic, but because I have re-read this thread over and over and still cannot find anyone making the argument that opening borders and opening prisons is going to prevent diseases.
- 5040 7y ago
  >Because at that time people didn’t distrust medical authorities like they do now (anti-vaxxers among others) I recommend taking a look at 'The State as an Immoral Factor' by Maria Louise Ramé--pseudonymously written in the late 1800's. Distrusting medical authorities is not a new phenomenon. Here's a small excerpt: A few years ago nobody thought it a matter of the slightest consequence to be bitten by a healthy dog; as a veterinary surgeon has justly said, a scratch from a rusty nail or the jagged tin of a sardine-box is much more truly dangerous than a dog's tooth. Yet in the last five years the physiologists and the state, which in all countries protects them, have succeeded in so inoculating the public mind with senseless terrors that even the accidental touch of a puppy's lips or the kindly lick of his tongue throws thousands of people into an insanity of fear. Dr Bell has justly said: 'Pasteur does not cure rabies; he creates it' In like manner the state does not cure either folly or fear: it creates both.
  - ziddoap 7y ago
    Maybe not new, but seemingly accelerating in magnitude. >A 2015 Pew study [...] We as a country have less faith in the medical system than we once did — trust was at 80 percent in 1973, and in 2016 it is 39 percent."[1] [1]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-their-institutions-anymore/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-th...
coldtea 7y ago
>We didn't have universal healthcare when we stamped out polio, smallpox, or yellow fever. And they affected millions before they were stamped out (by universal vaccinations). So there's that...

dougabug 7y ago

We had free vaccination of children at school, and opting out wasn’t common behavior. Also, the population was smaller and healthcare significantly cheaper.

afarrell 7y ago

We stamped those diseases out after thousands had contracted them.

phs318u 7y ago

Because at that time people didn’t distrust medical authorities like they do now (anti-vaxxers among others), and didn’t fear (as much) the other consequences of coming into contact with government agencies (incarceration/deportation).

alfromspace 7y ago
Oh goodness. Citation needed. And I'm curious whether you happen to be independently against deportation and incarceration. I suppose we'd better open the borders and prisons just to prevent disease, right? Or maybe there's a broader ideology at play here.
- ziddoap 7y ago
  >"I suppose we'd better open the borders and prisons just to prevent disease, right?" That's one way to take something that no one is arguing for and turn it up to 11. At least try to argue in good faith. Edit: Found a source for you regarding trust in healthcare, for what it's worth. >A 2015 Pew study [...] We as a country have less faith in the medical system than we once did — trust was at 80 percent in 1973, and in 2016 it is 39 percent."[1] [1]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-their-institutions-anymore/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-th...
  - alfromspace 7y ago
    There's a tricky game being played. For instance, everyone is "against open borders", but they're for decriminalizing border crossing, against deporting anyone, and want free healthcare, housing, and education for everyone irrespective of legal presence. Then people cook up these theories about various forms of law enforcement supposedly promoting crime and disease by making people fearful of taking preventative actions, and we're expected to consider these arguments in isolation and believe you when you say "no one is arguing for" the thing every word you say argues for. Maybe you two should try arguing in good faith.
    - ziddoap 7y ago
      You asked for, and I supplied, a citation about trust in healthcare. What is bad faith about that? I don't know what any of the other border stuff or law enforcement theories your talking about has to do with trust in the healthcare system, but feel free to continue making noise about it. No one has said that open borders and no prisons prevents diseases.
      - alfromspace 7y ago
        Why don't you tell us what your positions on those topics are? I'm trying to look below the surface here. I didn't see the citation when you first posted. I don't doubt it's valid, but the issue I had up the comment thread was with the theory that lowered faith in medical institutions is because of anti-vaxxers and fear of incarceration and deportation. Your source says nothing of the sort.
        ziddoap 7y ago
        I don't know what effect the fear of incarceration and deportation have in regards to lowering faith in medical institutions. I don't know if the folk who are against vaccination are the sole cause of eroding trust in healthcare, but given that healthcare trust is eroding and anti-vaccination believers are rising, it's not much of a stretch to think the two might be related. What I do know is that according to the study I linked, trust in healthcare has fallen quite a bit and that is likely to hinder our ability to slow an outbreak. I called you out for bad faith, not because of your position on the topic, but because I have re-read this thread over and over and still cannot find anyone making the argument that opening borders and opening prisons is going to prevent diseases.
5040 7y ago
>Because at that time people didn’t distrust medical authorities like they do now (anti-vaxxers among others) I recommend taking a look at 'The State as an Immoral Factor' by Maria Louise Ramé--pseudonymously written in the late 1800's. Distrusting medical authorities is not a new phenomenon. Here's a small excerpt: A few years ago nobody thought it a matter of the slightest consequence to be bitten by a healthy dog; as a veterinary surgeon has justly said, a scratch from a rusty nail or the jagged tin of a sardine-box is much more truly dangerous than a dog's tooth. Yet in the last five years the physiologists and the state, which in all countries protects them, have succeeded in so inoculating the public mind with senseless terrors that even the accidental touch of a puppy's lips or the kindly lick of his tongue throws thousands of people into an insanity of fear. Dr Bell has justly said: 'Pasteur does not cure rabies; he creates it' In like manner the state does not cure either folly or fear: it creates both.
- ziddoap 7y ago
  Maybe not new, but seemingly accelerating in magnitude. >A 2015 Pew study [...] We as a country have less faith in the medical system than we once did — trust was at 80 percent in 1973, and in 2016 it is 39 percent."[1] [1]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-their-institutions-anymore/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-dont-trust-th...

coldtea 7y ago

>We didn't have universal healthcare when we stamped out polio, smallpox, or yellow fever. And they affected millions before they were stamped out (by universal vaccinations). So there's that...