4 ms·

Micorkernels are still a thing? I haven't heard that phrase in ten years.

by collyw 7y ago

swebs 7y ago
You must not have been looking really hard. QNX is very popular for embedded systems, and every modern Intel processor is running MINIX on its IME.
- collyw 7y ago
  I didn't realize QNX was microkernel.
- tyingq 7y ago
  The Android bootloader is LK.
  - ndesaulniers 7y ago
    Android does not distribute a bootloader. SoC vendors have their own.
    - tyingq 7y ago
      I would hazard a guess that most of them are the LK bootloader that Google (contrary to your claim) does distribute large portions of: https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/lk/ https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/lk/ http://newandroidbook.com/Articles/aboot.html http://newandroidbook.com/Articles/aboot.html
      - ndesaulniers 7y ago
        Notice the year of the final commit of any of those branches?
pjmlp 7y ago
Yes, they power most of the embedded hardware where human life might be at risk. Minix runs on a large amount of Intel CPUs. Both Windows and macOS derived OSes, even though they aren't proper micro-kernels, have been slowly migrating stuff over to user space and increasing the sandboxing surface area. Given the new DriverKit, Apple's long term roadmap is to remove all driver APIs and replace them by user space ones. As stated at WWDC, when DriverKit will get feature X, the corresponding feature at kernel level gets automatically deprecated and will be removed in the following version. Until after a couple of macOS releases there won't be anything left to migrate over to DriverKit. One of the results of Project Treble was to introduce a new userspace layer for drivers, since Android 8, all new drivers are required to be userspace drivers. Only legacy drivers are allowed as classical Linux drivers. So yeah, they are still a thing.
- floatboth 7y ago
  The Treble services that reside in /vendor are usually talking to… surprise, custom Qualcomm kernel drivers. I don't think there's been any attempts to just map device memory into these services and make them actual drivers. Actually that could be a step back for freedom, since the kernel drivers' source has to be at least dumped somewhere for GPL compliance.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Most likely, Project Treble is just a in-between step until Fuchsia is production ready. As for freedom, that is the outcome of the anti-GPL movement, and push for BSD like licenses.
    - ndesaulniers 7y ago
      I will show this comment to the treble team for a good laugh.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        That is what happens when you do stuff in secret. We make fools of ourselves trying to guess what chocolate factory is doing.
cmrdporcupine 7y ago
"OKL4 shipments exceeded 1.5 billion in early 2012,[2] mostly on Qualcomm wireless modem chips. Other deployments include automotive infotainment systems.[12]" So, yeah, microkernels are kind of still a thing.

Micorkernels are still a thing? I haven't heard that phrase in ten years.

by collyw 7y ago

Micorkernels are still a thing? I haven't heard that phrase in ten years.

You must not have been looking really hard. QNX is very popular for embedded systems, and every modern Intel processor is running MINIX on its IME.

collyw 7y ago
I didn't realize QNX was microkernel.
tyingq 7y ago
The Android bootloader is LK.
- ndesaulniers 7y ago
  Android does not distribute a bootloader. SoC vendors have their own.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    I would hazard a guess that most of them are the LK bootloader that Google (contrary to your claim) does distribute large portions of: https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/lk/ https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/lk/ http://newandroidbook.com/Articles/aboot.html http://newandroidbook.com/Articles/aboot.html
    - ndesaulniers 7y ago
      Notice the year of the final commit of any of those branches?

pjmlp 7y ago

Yes, they power most of the embedded hardware where human life might be at risk. Minix runs on a large amount of Intel CPUs. Both Windows and macOS derived OSes, even though they aren't proper micro-kernels, have been slowly migrating stuff over to user space and increasing the sandboxing surface area. Given the new DriverKit, Apple's long term roadmap is to remove all driver APIs and replace them by user space ones. As stated at WWDC, when DriverKit will get feature X, the corresponding feature at kernel level gets automatically deprecated and will be removed in the following version. Until after a couple of macOS releases there won't be anything left to migrate over to DriverKit. One of the results of Project Treble was to introduce a new userspace layer for drivers, since Android 8, all new drivers are required to be userspace drivers. Only legacy drivers are allowed as classical Linux drivers. So yeah, they are still a thing.

floatboth 7y ago
The Treble services that reside in /vendor are usually talking to… surprise, custom Qualcomm kernel drivers. I don't think there's been any attempts to just map device memory into these services and make them actual drivers. Actually that could be a step back for freedom, since the kernel drivers' source has to be at least dumped somewhere for GPL compliance.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Most likely, Project Treble is just a in-between step until Fuchsia is production ready. As for freedom, that is the outcome of the anti-GPL movement, and push for BSD like licenses.
  - ndesaulniers 7y ago
    I will show this comment to the treble team for a good laugh.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      That is what happens when you do stuff in secret. We make fools of ourselves trying to guess what chocolate factory is doing.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago

"OKL4 shipments exceeded 1.5 billion in early 2012,[2] mostly on Qualcomm wireless modem chips. Other deployments include automotive infotainment systems.[12]" So, yeah, microkernels are kind of still a thing.