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As someone who lived next to the main square in Amsterdam I never understood why people choose to drive with a car on the roads that cross the city (if they do

As someone who lived next to the main square in Amsterdam I never understood why people choose to drive with a car on the roads that cross the city (if they don't live there/uber/taxi drivers) Main streets in cities should be car-free I'm glad to hear about Berlin decision. For many more to come

estsauver 7y ago
I was about to object, but I think as long as Taxi/Uber/Ride share are allowed in the center it'd be a huge improvement for Amsterdam. Taking a car anywhere inside prisengracht is already an exercise in pain, but opening up the city a little bit more would make the few "dicey" intersections in Amsterdam easier on a bike.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  Why should taxis be allowed. They are even worse than personal cars because they spend a lot of time driving with no one being transported.
  - robert_foss 7y ago
    Taxi exemptions make no sense to me either, it would just make life easier for well-off people. Biking or public transit it the answer.
    - barrkel 7y ago
      Bikes and public transport work well for people who can afford to live centrally, close to dense transport networks and within range of easy biking. But if you're out socializing, you may be drunk (so unsafe to bike) and late (where transport networks start getting sparse). That's when taxis make more sense.
      - dagw 7y ago
        But if you're out socializing, you may be drunk (so unsafe to bike) and late (where transport networks start getting sparse). That's when taxis make more sense. Sure, but why does the taxi have to pick you up right outside the club. Most of the time it's not unreasonable to expect people to walk a short stretch to a place where a taxi can pick you up.
        barrkel 7y ago
        Oh I fully agree with pedestrianizing streets, what I don't agree with is banning taxis from city centres.
        dagw 7y ago
        I guess it all depends on how big your definition of "city centers" is. Is it 1 km or 10 km across? Thinking realistically about my own city, I could probably draw 3-5 "islands", each ~1km across, within in the larger city center that I would make car free, but still have roads running between/around them.
    - PedroCandeias 7y ago
      Transporting bulky or heavy items can be impractical by bike or public transport, as in when shopping or moving. People with ilnesses and/or mobility issues also come to mind. Cars' carrying capacity and weatherproofing are useful. As long as the number is limited and their usage is shared (taxis, carsharing), their existence can be a net positive in my opinion.
      - exergy 7y ago
        If you've been to Amsterdam, you'll realize that people don't give a fuck about weatherproofing. They're out riding bikes in normal clothes in the biggest of deluges. It's frankly jaw-dropping for me to see. Nevertheless, the examples you've stated are easily dealt with by allowing as-needed exceptions for the disabled. I don't see what moving houses has to do with wanting to go to the town center in a car though.
        xaitv 7y ago
        The difference in amount of bikes you see on a rainy/cold day vs a warm spring day is huge though. I think what he means is that when you want to move a couch/bed/big television for example you don't really have good options, because even disassembled these are usually pretty bulky boxes to move through public transport or by bike.
        jchanimal 7y ago
        A flatbed bike trailer can carry more than a pickup truck. We moved house by bike. 20 friends makes easy work.
        PedroCandeias 7y ago
        Well, some years ago I helped a friend move from a place in central Amsterdam to Berlin. It would have been really expensive to hire a moving company, compared to renting a van and a car. In Berlin, where I live (in the center in fact), we're big on reusing and recycling. I don't own a car, but quite often I need to transport bulky second hand items from wherever I bought them, or bulky trash to the recycling center. So I drive one from a car-sharing app. I've also needed to take someone to a hospital, and it was just quicker to grab a car2go than waiting for an ambulance. My point is, there are many use cases where the ability to drive or call a taxi is better than the existing alternatives. I agree that cities everywhere need far fewer cars in them, and I think Berlin with its focus on biking and public transportation but availability or car-sharing vehicles for on-demand private driving is heading in the right direction without having to outright ban cars.
    - johannes1234321 7y ago
      Taxis are important for elderly or disabled people who can't use public transport or walk medium distances.
      - jdnenej 7y ago
        Why can't they? I see people on wheelchairs and elderly get on the bus all the time. Yes walking long distances could be an issue but a good public transport system does not require you to walk long distance. Elderly people usually can't afford to get a taxi everywhere.
        johannes1234321 7y ago
        There some that can, and some that can't. Some that can innrush our, somemthst can't in rush hour. And about costs: At least here in Germany health insurance for isntance cover some costs for Taxis (when going to a doctor ... while they got stricter) Also in Germany Taxis have regulated prices in order to give some affordability. (Which is one of the critiques on Uber over here, as Uber can pick the routes they like and can raise prices on high demand, while making it cheap innorder to compete with regulated market during other times in hardly predictable ways, which isn't good for people who depend on working transport infrastructure)
  - namdnay 7y ago
    I don’t think they’re worse, because the total carbon footprint is much smaller compared to everyone owning their own car
    - pilsetnieks 7y ago
      Also much less space would be taken up by street parking. Eliminate parking space in those limited zones, and you can have wider walking spaces, more greenery, that's already a benefit. A solution doesn't have to be 100% perfect immediately to be of benefit to people.
  - estsauver 7y ago
    Higher standards enforced on commercial drivers license/taxi, adhoc transit for elderly/mobility reduced (you're on crutches), things like delivery of a modest amount of heavy shopping from stores without delivery, and because the central area of Amsterdam is actually relatively large.
telesilla 7y ago
Because wealthy people shopping at the Bijenkorf want to drive and park there. Other than that, I also can't think of a reason. If the area became car-free I would warrant that the shopping giant would move.
AmericanChopper 7y ago
It’s not that hard to understand. People want to take their cars shopping with them. Walking home with your shopping, catching public transport with your shopping, dragging your shopping around from one place to another, are all either inconvenient or impossible depending on what you’re going shopping for. Unless I can easily fit everything I intend to buy in my bag, I’d want to take car with me.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  You can still park outside the city and walk the short distance or if it's too heavy to carry then most stores do free delivery for large orders.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    Personally, I just avoid shopping in the city center unless I have a particularly good reason to. But the parent said they couldn’t understand why anybody would want to drive into the city. The answer is perfectly obvious. Convenience, even though it comes at the expense of taking more time. Everybody could do things the way you suggest too, but it would still be less convenient, so not everybody will do that every time. I’m sure many of those same people also buy things online, in circumstance where that’s the more convenient option.
- maeln 7y ago
  For this reason, furniture shop, hardware shop, or any shop that tend to sell bulky things is usually not in the city center in a place more accessible by car and with a parking. At least, that's what happening in my city. For other shopping, you can usually park in a relay parking (a parking close to public transportation) and you will be 5 to 15 minutes from the shops. And unless you brought a real shitons of things (which already means that going shop to shop is going to be annoying anyway) it's not going to be an issue. I lived 8 years in my city without a car. I was very rarely a problem. The only thing is for people with disability. I can understand that for them, a car can still be practical.
  - 7y ago
flexie 7y ago
I really don't see why taxis or Uber should be allowed, at least if they are not fully electric. They are often larger than private cars, and they drive only the chauffeur and typically one grown up customer around, who could easily have walked, taken the metro or a bus. Half the time they are just waiting around for customers while the engine is on so the chauffeur can cool down or warm up inside. A better exception would be EVs. Then lower their speed limit to 20 or 30 km/h in the city center, narrow car space to one lane in each direction, and free up the rest of the space on the streets for pedestrians, bikes, electric scooters, etc.
- Plasmoid2000ad 7y ago
  Not everyone is capable of walking long distances, using bikes or electric scooters. Taxis are a form of public transport. I'm not saying everyone who uses them needs to use them, but if you ban them outright you ban certain people outright, which is discrimination in the absence of alternatives.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Amsterdam in particular (mentioned in the GP) has excellent metro and tram networks, so you never have to walk far if you don't want to. That said, the trams can still be really awkward if you're disabled, particularly if you're in a wheelchair as, somewhat incredibly in this day and age, not all trams are wheelchair friendly. And on those that are, you are reliant on the conductor to manually push out a ramp for you. I do also agree that taxis are a form of public transport, and I don't personally think they should be excluded from places that buses and trams are permitted.
  - oska 7y ago
    > in the absence of alternatives Can't make this argument any longer. Plenty of electric vehicles which can serve as taxis, and in the UK they manufacture one especially for the purpose. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    At least in the US, you could make a compromise along ADA lines. Maybe I'm ignorant of this exact situation, but if it's only one road that's closed, shouldn't the other roads be close enough? What stops a car from entering an alley so someone with limited mobility can enter it?
chaosbutters 7y ago
This is how I feel about Manhattan/NYC. It should be limited to taxis/uber, buses, garbage, ambulances, and delivery trucks. There should be large garages/parking lots that are free/cheap just north of it in the bronx and people can quickly commute in via a shuttle, bus or bike.
- dagw 7y ago
  It should be limited to taxis/uber Wouldn't that just lead to everybody becoming Uber drivers that just happen to never quite getting around to picking up passengers? Same with delivery trucks. "No officer I'm not driving to work, I'm a one man delivery company delivering this briefcase to my office in my car". I'm in no way a fan of the medallion system, but if your goal is to put a hard limit on the number of cars in a city then you're going to need some way to enforce that limit. One idea might be to rework the "medallion" system so that they're sold at auction at the start of each year, and are only valid for 1 year. Then let both taxi companies and Uber/Lyft/etc. drivers bid against each for medallions once a year in an open market.
  - ed312 7y ago
    There are a number of ways to handle "cheating" - greatly increased insurance and license expense for CDL drivers would probably cut down on most systemic fraud.
    - mises 7y ago
      You don't need a CDL to drive for Uber. The whole point is that any one can pick up is phone and start driving. How do you stop that? Given the climate of Houston summers, I'd just come in an hour, hour-and-a-half early and do three trips to call myself a driver; literally just so I could avoid the heat.
      - ruds 7y ago
        New York requires that you get a license from the Taxi and Limousine Commission in order to drive for Uber. https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/resources/ https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/resources/ https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/get-a-license/ https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/get-a-license/
vanderZwan 7y ago
As someone who studied in Groningen... I really miss the car-free center[0][1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svN1xSJ_AAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svN1xSJ_AAU [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv38J7SKH_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv38J7SKH_g
- dddw 7y ago
  yeah it's great, you also get kind of more a village vibe / forum in the city because there is a real pedestrian heavy city centre instead

estsauver 7y ago

I was about to object, but I think as long as Taxi/Uber/Ride share are allowed in the center it'd be a huge improvement for Amsterdam. Taking a car anywhere inside prisengracht is already an exercise in pain, but opening up the city a little bit more would make the few "dicey" intersections in Amsterdam easier on a bike.

jdnenej 7y ago
Why should taxis be allowed. They are even worse than personal cars because they spend a lot of time driving with no one being transported.
- robert_foss 7y ago
  Taxi exemptions make no sense to me either, it would just make life easier for well-off people. Biking or public transit it the answer.
  - barrkel 7y ago
    Bikes and public transport work well for people who can afford to live centrally, close to dense transport networks and within range of easy biking. But if you're out socializing, you may be drunk (so unsafe to bike) and late (where transport networks start getting sparse). That's when taxis make more sense.
    - dagw 7y ago
      But if you're out socializing, you may be drunk (so unsafe to bike) and late (where transport networks start getting sparse). That's when taxis make more sense. Sure, but why does the taxi have to pick you up right outside the club. Most of the time it's not unreasonable to expect people to walk a short stretch to a place where a taxi can pick you up.
      - barrkel 7y ago
        Oh I fully agree with pedestrianizing streets, what I don't agree with is banning taxis from city centres.
        dagw 7y ago
        I guess it all depends on how big your definition of "city centers" is. Is it 1 km or 10 km across? Thinking realistically about my own city, I could probably draw 3-5 "islands", each ~1km across, within in the larger city center that I would make car free, but still have roads running between/around them.
  - PedroCandeias 7y ago
    Transporting bulky or heavy items can be impractical by bike or public transport, as in when shopping or moving. People with ilnesses and/or mobility issues also come to mind. Cars' carrying capacity and weatherproofing are useful. As long as the number is limited and their usage is shared (taxis, carsharing), their existence can be a net positive in my opinion.
    - exergy 7y ago
      If you've been to Amsterdam, you'll realize that people don't give a fuck about weatherproofing. They're out riding bikes in normal clothes in the biggest of deluges. It's frankly jaw-dropping for me to see. Nevertheless, the examples you've stated are easily dealt with by allowing as-needed exceptions for the disabled. I don't see what moving houses has to do with wanting to go to the town center in a car though.
      - xaitv 7y ago
        The difference in amount of bikes you see on a rainy/cold day vs a warm spring day is huge though. I think what he means is that when you want to move a couch/bed/big television for example you don't really have good options, because even disassembled these are usually pretty bulky boxes to move through public transport or by bike.
        jchanimal 7y ago
        A flatbed bike trailer can carry more than a pickup truck. We moved house by bike. 20 friends makes easy work.
      - PedroCandeias 7y ago
        Well, some years ago I helped a friend move from a place in central Amsterdam to Berlin. It would have been really expensive to hire a moving company, compared to renting a van and a car. In Berlin, where I live (in the center in fact), we're big on reusing and recycling. I don't own a car, but quite often I need to transport bulky second hand items from wherever I bought them, or bulky trash to the recycling center. So I drive one from a car-sharing app. I've also needed to take someone to a hospital, and it was just quicker to grab a car2go than waiting for an ambulance. My point is, there are many use cases where the ability to drive or call a taxi is better than the existing alternatives. I agree that cities everywhere need far fewer cars in them, and I think Berlin with its focus on biking and public transportation but availability or car-sharing vehicles for on-demand private driving is heading in the right direction without having to outright ban cars.
  - johannes1234321 7y ago
    Taxis are important for elderly or disabled people who can't use public transport or walk medium distances.
    - jdnenej 7y ago
      Why can't they? I see people on wheelchairs and elderly get on the bus all the time. Yes walking long distances could be an issue but a good public transport system does not require you to walk long distance. Elderly people usually can't afford to get a taxi everywhere.
      - johannes1234321 7y ago
        There some that can, and some that can't. Some that can innrush our, somemthst can't in rush hour. And about costs: At least here in Germany health insurance for isntance cover some costs for Taxis (when going to a doctor ... while they got stricter) Also in Germany Taxis have regulated prices in order to give some affordability. (Which is one of the critiques on Uber over here, as Uber can pick the routes they like and can raise prices on high demand, while making it cheap innorder to compete with regulated market during other times in hardly predictable ways, which isn't good for people who depend on working transport infrastructure)
- namdnay 7y ago
  I don’t think they’re worse, because the total carbon footprint is much smaller compared to everyone owning their own car
  - pilsetnieks 7y ago
    Also much less space would be taken up by street parking. Eliminate parking space in those limited zones, and you can have wider walking spaces, more greenery, that's already a benefit. A solution doesn't have to be 100% perfect immediately to be of benefit to people.
- estsauver 7y ago
  Higher standards enforced on commercial drivers license/taxi, adhoc transit for elderly/mobility reduced (you're on crutches), things like delivery of a modest amount of heavy shopping from stores without delivery, and because the central area of Amsterdam is actually relatively large.

telesilla 7y ago

Because wealthy people shopping at the Bijenkorf want to drive and park there. Other than that, I also can't think of a reason. If the area became car-free I would warrant that the shopping giant would move.

AmericanChopper 7y ago

It’s not that hard to understand. People want to take their cars shopping with them. Walking home with your shopping, catching public transport with your shopping, dragging your shopping around from one place to another, are all either inconvenient or impossible depending on what you’re going shopping for. Unless I can easily fit everything I intend to buy in my bag, I’d want to take car with me.

jdnenej 7y ago
You can still park outside the city and walk the short distance or if it's too heavy to carry then most stores do free delivery for large orders.
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  Personally, I just avoid shopping in the city center unless I have a particularly good reason to. But the parent said they couldn’t understand why anybody would want to drive into the city. The answer is perfectly obvious. Convenience, even though it comes at the expense of taking more time. Everybody could do things the way you suggest too, but it would still be less convenient, so not everybody will do that every time. I’m sure many of those same people also buy things online, in circumstance where that’s the more convenient option.
maeln 7y ago
For this reason, furniture shop, hardware shop, or any shop that tend to sell bulky things is usually not in the city center in a place more accessible by car and with a parking. At least, that's what happening in my city. For other shopping, you can usually park in a relay parking (a parking close to public transportation) and you will be 5 to 15 minutes from the shops. And unless you brought a real shitons of things (which already means that going shop to shop is going to be annoying anyway) it's not going to be an issue. I lived 8 years in my city without a car. I was very rarely a problem. The only thing is for people with disability. I can understand that for them, a car can still be practical.
- 7y ago

flexie 7y ago

I really don't see why taxis or Uber should be allowed, at least if they are not fully electric. They are often larger than private cars, and they drive only the chauffeur and typically one grown up customer around, who could easily have walked, taken the metro or a bus. Half the time they are just waiting around for customers while the engine is on so the chauffeur can cool down or warm up inside. A better exception would be EVs. Then lower their speed limit to 20 or 30 km/h in the city center, narrow car space to one lane in each direction, and free up the rest of the space on the streets for pedestrians, bikes, electric scooters, etc.

Plasmoid2000ad 7y ago
Not everyone is capable of walking long distances, using bikes or electric scooters. Taxis are a form of public transport. I'm not saying everyone who uses them needs to use them, but if you ban them outright you ban certain people outright, which is discrimination in the absence of alternatives.
- GordonS 7y ago
  Amsterdam in particular (mentioned in the GP) has excellent metro and tram networks, so you never have to walk far if you don't want to. That said, the trams can still be really awkward if you're disabled, particularly if you're in a wheelchair as, somewhat incredibly in this day and age, not all trams are wheelchair friendly. And on those that are, you are reliant on the conductor to manually push out a ramp for you. I do also agree that taxis are a form of public transport, and I don't personally think they should be excluded from places that buses and trams are permitted.
- oska 7y ago
  > in the absence of alternatives Can't make this argument any longer. Plenty of electric vehicles which can serve as taxis, and in the UK they manufacture one especially for the purpose. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  At least in the US, you could make a compromise along ADA lines. Maybe I'm ignorant of this exact situation, but if it's only one road that's closed, shouldn't the other roads be close enough? What stops a car from entering an alley so someone with limited mobility can enter it?

chaosbutters 7y ago

This is how I feel about Manhattan/NYC. It should be limited to taxis/uber, buses, garbage, ambulances, and delivery trucks. There should be large garages/parking lots that are free/cheap just north of it in the bronx and people can quickly commute in via a shuttle, bus or bike.

dagw 7y ago
It should be limited to taxis/uber Wouldn't that just lead to everybody becoming Uber drivers that just happen to never quite getting around to picking up passengers? Same with delivery trucks. "No officer I'm not driving to work, I'm a one man delivery company delivering this briefcase to my office in my car". I'm in no way a fan of the medallion system, but if your goal is to put a hard limit on the number of cars in a city then you're going to need some way to enforce that limit. One idea might be to rework the "medallion" system so that they're sold at auction at the start of each year, and are only valid for 1 year. Then let both taxi companies and Uber/Lyft/etc. drivers bid against each for medallions once a year in an open market.
- ed312 7y ago
  There are a number of ways to handle "cheating" - greatly increased insurance and license expense for CDL drivers would probably cut down on most systemic fraud.
  - mises 7y ago
    You don't need a CDL to drive for Uber. The whole point is that any one can pick up is phone and start driving. How do you stop that? Given the climate of Houston summers, I'd just come in an hour, hour-and-a-half early and do three trips to call myself a driver; literally just so I could avoid the heat.
    - ruds 7y ago
      New York requires that you get a license from the Taxi and Limousine Commission in order to drive for Uber. https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/resources/ https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/resources/ https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/get-a-license/ https://www.uber.com/drive/new-york/get-a-license/

vanderZwan 7y ago

As someone who studied in Groningen... I really miss the car-free center[0][1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svN1xSJ_AAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svN1xSJ_AAU [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv38J7SKH_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv38J7SKH_g

dddw 7y ago
yeah it's great, you also get kind of more a village vibe / forum in the city because there is a real pedestrian heavy city centre instead