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You're wrong about multiple things here. Regular moderators can effectively shadowban inside their subreddits by using AutoModerator and telling it to remove a

You're wrong about multiple things here. Regular moderators can effectively shadowban inside their subreddits by using AutoModerator and telling it to remove all posts made by certain users. Reddit Gold has literally been renamed to Reddit Premium and is described officially as both a "premium membership" and a "subscription": https://www.reddit.com/premium https://www.reddit.com/premium

true_religion 7y ago
That’s not shadow banning. That’s regular banning. To shadow ban, the suspect has to not know they are being affected. Automoderator is not subtle.
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  Apparently you've never (knowingly) been shadowbanned by AutoMod. Deimorz (the guy you're responding to) created AutoMod when he worked at Reddit, and I can assure you that AutoMod is more than capable of removing all of your comments without you knowing (and the only way for you to know is to try to view your profile in incognito mode, or have someone else tell you that they can't see any of your comments).
ziddoap 7y ago
An "effective shadowban" using AM to remove comments is not the same thing as a global shadowban issued by site-wide admins, by any stretch.
- Deimorz 7y ago
  I created AutoModerator and was an admin for 4 years. I understand the differences intimately, but they're very similar from the affected user's perspective.
  - rhaksw 7y ago
    Does Tildes enable admins/mods to use either shadow banning or shadow removal?
    - Deimorz 7y ago
      No - I'm the only one that can remove posts at this point, and it puts a brightly-colored bold "This comment has been removed and is not visible to other users".
      - rhaksw 7y ago
        Wow I had no idea. That makes Tildes much more appealing.
txcwpalpha 7y ago
>Regular moderators can effectively shadowban inside their subreddits by using AutoModerator and telling it to remove all posts made by certain users. While your comment makes it sound like AutoMod just removes comments, what I think you're meaning to point out is that AutoMod can selectively hide all of a user's comments to everyone except for the comment author, which is the exact same as shadowbanning, and isn't just a simple comment removal. A lot of subreddits use this feature now, too. Some automatically shadowban any user that doesn't have above a certain amount of karma, while others auto shadowban everyone and then only maintain a whitelist of authorized posters. If you've ever posted on a subreddit and gotten zero replies/votes, it's worth going into incognito mode and trying to view your comment from there. Chances are, your account is shadowbanned in that subreddit.
- Deimorz 7y ago
  Yeah, that's how all comment removals on reddit work though (which, you're right, many users don't realize). Users can only know their comments are removed if they check from logged-out or another account, or if the moderators notify them by posting a reply or messaging (which some do, but not a lot of the time overall).
  - txcwpalpha 7y ago
    Ah, you're right. I imagine most users aren't aware of this because they assume that if their comment was removed, they would see the "[removed]" tag like they see for everyone else's removed comments. And either many redditors have never had their comments removed, or more likely, shadowbanning is apparently a lot more effective than people realized.
    - Deimorz 7y ago
      Yeah, it's not uncommon at all to see things like, "Edit: Wow, this whole chain of comments was removed, except for mine!" because people don't realize that the site actively hides whether your posts are removed. Pretty much all of reddit's moderation tools were created 10+ years ago for anti-spam purposes, and have hardly been changed since then. They don't work very well for how they're actually used now.
Raphmedia 7y ago
Using a bot to automatically delete content is not the same as an administrator making your submissions and comments invisible to everyone but you. I give it to you, a Subreddit AutoModerator Ban and a Reddit Shadowban are similar in result but not the same thing and should not be referred as such. As far as I know, a regular moderator cannot use AutoModerator to ban a user across the entire website. For the re-branded Reddit Premium, you seem to be right. But the point is moot, having a premium account is not a protection from getting banned. See paid games where users with accounts worth thousands of dollars are banned. (Edit: Oh, just noticed who I am talking to. Hi Deimorz! Great work on all of this.)
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  >Using a bot to automatically delete content is not the same as an administrator making your submissions and comments invisible to everyone but you. This is exactly what automod does.
  - Raphmedia 7y ago
    One is a flag on the user's account, the other is adding a username to a bot's watch-list. They act the same but are not the same thing. That would be like saying that paying an employee to watch someone's account and manually delete every comments and submissions is a shadow ban. It is not. AutoModerator is an amazing piece of work but it is just that, a robot moderator. But that's not the point. The point is that "an unpaid, unaffiliated subreddit moderator" cannot blanked ban you from the website (and that being a premium user won't protect you from such bans either).
    - txcwpalpha 7y ago
      >the other is adding a username to a bot's watch-list Which is exactly the same as adding a flag to a user's account. This is some bizarre hair splitting going on here. >That would be like saying that paying an employee to watch someone's account and manually delete every comments and submissions is a shadow ban. It is not. AutoModerator is an amazing piece of work but it is just that, a robot moderator I don't know what you're trying to say here. What exactly, in your mind, is the difference between "a robot moderator", which is code that controls what is and isn't visible on a subreddit, and core reddit code, which is also just code that controls what is and isn't visible on reddit? >The point is that "an unpaid, unaffiliated subreddit moderator" cannot blanked ban you from the website Reddit is infamous for having multiple poweruser mods that are moderators over many of the most popular subreddits, and many of these subreddits share banlists (even ones outside the 'powermod cabal'). A ban from any one of these 'unpaid, unaffiliated subreddit moderator' will result in a shadowban from the majority of the website. I hear you and agree that yes, a 'premium subscription' does not mean you're immune from bans, but you seem to also misunderstand the banning mechanisms on reddit. 'Shadowbanning' is much more widely used across reddit than I think you are aware of.

true_religion 7y ago

That’s not shadow banning. That’s regular banning. To shadow ban, the suspect has to not know they are being affected. Automoderator is not subtle.

txcwpalpha 7y ago
Apparently you've never (knowingly) been shadowbanned by AutoMod. Deimorz (the guy you're responding to) created AutoMod when he worked at Reddit, and I can assure you that AutoMod is more than capable of removing all of your comments without you knowing (and the only way for you to know is to try to view your profile in incognito mode, or have someone else tell you that they can't see any of your comments).

ziddoap 7y ago

An "effective shadowban" using AM to remove comments is not the same thing as a global shadowban issued by site-wide admins, by any stretch.

Deimorz 7y ago
I created AutoModerator and was an admin for 4 years. I understand the differences intimately, but they're very similar from the affected user's perspective.
- rhaksw 7y ago
  Does Tildes enable admins/mods to use either shadow banning or shadow removal?
  - Deimorz 7y ago
    No - I'm the only one that can remove posts at this point, and it puts a brightly-colored bold "This comment has been removed and is not visible to other users".
    - rhaksw 7y ago
      Wow I had no idea. That makes Tildes much more appealing.

txcwpalpha 7y ago

>Regular moderators can effectively shadowban inside their subreddits by using AutoModerator and telling it to remove all posts made by certain users. While your comment makes it sound like AutoMod just removes comments, what I think you're meaning to point out is that AutoMod can selectively hide all of a user's comments to everyone except for the comment author, which is the exact same as shadowbanning, and isn't just a simple comment removal. A lot of subreddits use this feature now, too. Some automatically shadowban any user that doesn't have above a certain amount of karma, while others auto shadowban everyone and then only maintain a whitelist of authorized posters. If you've ever posted on a subreddit and gotten zero replies/votes, it's worth going into incognito mode and trying to view your comment from there. Chances are, your account is shadowbanned in that subreddit.

Deimorz 7y ago
Yeah, that's how all comment removals on reddit work though (which, you're right, many users don't realize). Users can only know their comments are removed if they check from logged-out or another account, or if the moderators notify them by posting a reply or messaging (which some do, but not a lot of the time overall).
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  Ah, you're right. I imagine most users aren't aware of this because they assume that if their comment was removed, they would see the "[removed]" tag like they see for everyone else's removed comments. And either many redditors have never had their comments removed, or more likely, shadowbanning is apparently a lot more effective than people realized.
  - Deimorz 7y ago
    Yeah, it's not uncommon at all to see things like, "Edit: Wow, this whole chain of comments was removed, except for mine!" because people don't realize that the site actively hides whether your posts are removed. Pretty much all of reddit's moderation tools were created 10+ years ago for anti-spam purposes, and have hardly been changed since then. They don't work very well for how they're actually used now.

Raphmedia 7y ago

Using a bot to automatically delete content is not the same as an administrator making your submissions and comments invisible to everyone but you. I give it to you, a Subreddit AutoModerator Ban and a Reddit Shadowban are similar in result but not the same thing and should not be referred as such. As far as I know, a regular moderator cannot use AutoModerator to ban a user across the entire website. For the re-branded Reddit Premium, you seem to be right. But the point is moot, having a premium account is not a protection from getting banned. See paid games where users with accounts worth thousands of dollars are banned. (Edit: Oh, just noticed who I am talking to. Hi Deimorz! Great work on all of this.)

txcwpalpha 7y ago
>Using a bot to automatically delete content is not the same as an administrator making your submissions and comments invisible to everyone but you. This is exactly what automod does.
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  One is a flag on the user's account, the other is adding a username to a bot's watch-list. They act the same but are not the same thing. That would be like saying that paying an employee to watch someone's account and manually delete every comments and submissions is a shadow ban. It is not. AutoModerator is an amazing piece of work but it is just that, a robot moderator. But that's not the point. The point is that "an unpaid, unaffiliated subreddit moderator" cannot blanked ban you from the website (and that being a premium user won't protect you from such bans either).
  - txcwpalpha 7y ago
    >the other is adding a username to a bot's watch-list Which is exactly the same as adding a flag to a user's account. This is some bizarre hair splitting going on here. >That would be like saying that paying an employee to watch someone's account and manually delete every comments and submissions is a shadow ban. It is not. AutoModerator is an amazing piece of work but it is just that, a robot moderator I don't know what you're trying to say here. What exactly, in your mind, is the difference between "a robot moderator", which is code that controls what is and isn't visible on a subreddit, and core reddit code, which is also just code that controls what is and isn't visible on reddit? >The point is that "an unpaid, unaffiliated subreddit moderator" cannot blanked ban you from the website Reddit is infamous for having multiple poweruser mods that are moderators over many of the most popular subreddits, and many of these subreddits share banlists (even ones outside the 'powermod cabal'). A ban from any one of these 'unpaid, unaffiliated subreddit moderator' will result in a shadowban from the majority of the website. I hear you and agree that yes, a 'premium subscription' does not mean you're immune from bans, but you seem to also misunderstand the banning mechanisms on reddit. 'Shadowbanning' is much more widely used across reddit than I think you are aware of.