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Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise. Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. Undocumented immigrants

Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise. Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. Undocumented immigrants would be able to climb out of poverty if they weren't being persecuted by the federal government, so the fact that they can't use services they pay for is a problem, not a solution, as these services are intended to push people up and out of poverty (to the extent that they work, admittedly). And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans, and yes, the viewpoint you are expressing is not only xenophobic, but also not grounded in the many many facts I've provided. What is it really? Do you fear things different from you? Do you think of "your team" as the one that hates immigration, so you feel the need to support that view? Do you think you and your kind are superior than the people who want to live here? What is the actual reason? Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it. Dang doesn't like it when these conversations get combative and protracted, so I'm going to stop replying. I do wish we could continue, and I think you should summarize your position in your final reply, because it's important to get this stuff out there, and honestly I think at this point the only really "wrong" thing you've done is not fully consider the consequences of your position.

mieseratte 7y ago
> Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. They can and do. > And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans I would appreciate it if you did not place words in my mouth which I have not said. > Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it. Because I've witnessed first hand the problems of illegal immigration. I grew up in a community filled with them. Went to school with them. Befriended them, and watched many of them achieve citizenship. Witnessed illegal workers being paid below-legal wages, living three to a room so they could save every penny to send as remittance. I've seen them out compete the local blue collar laborers. Sorry I'm not willing to throw aside the working class so you can acquire cheaper goods and services. > Dang doesn't like it when these conversations get combative and protracted, so I'm going to stop replying. Ah yes, take the moral high-road after you've attempted to assassinate my character by calling me a xenophobe.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- diminoten 7y ago
  I'm seriously not trying to take any high ground, this is an entirely practical problem, he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site. Totally not a high ground thing, I just don't want to get banned is all!
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > so I'm going to stop replying. > he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site. Regrettably, it would appear you haven't learned the lesson dang is trying to impart. I hope for the sake of your tenure that you one day find your inner peace.
    - diminoten 7y ago
      Haha I am a slow learner! I'm sorry that I upset you, seriously I am.
chrchang523 7y ago
Singapore's government is widely acknowledged to have one of the best track records in the world, when it comes to considering and then successfully implementing unpopular policies that nevertheless economically benefit the group. And immigration policy is one area they considered with fresh eyes; even the most radical open borders advocates were permitted to, and did, try to make their case in Singapore. What did they conclude the facts actually were? What is their immigration policy today? If one of you two is ignoring the facts, there's practically no question that it's you.
- diminoten 7y ago
  I'm confused, are you talking about this, a paper published in 2013 by the government of Singapore? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_White_Paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_White_Paper That research you're talking about (with fresh eyes) concluded they needed more immigrants, not fewer. I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. Singapore's immigration laws are in what way relevant to the US? It's an "island city state" according to Wikipedia, not really at all comparable, but if one wanted to make a comparison, the government of Singapore suggested opening its own borders further, which supports what I was saying. Did you think I was advocating for a more closed border?
  - chrchang523 7y ago
    Singapore treats high-skill and low-skill immigrants quite differently. That's the centerpiece of their policy, and entirely relevant to the West. Compare Canada/Australia/NZ's race-blind (and high-volume, especially relative to their population sizes!) but points-based immigration systems, and much lower severity of populist revolt in those countries, with the problems in the US and European countries that had been executing less selective policies against the wishes of their citizens.
    - diminoten 7y ago
      Against the wishes of their citizens? Since when? Also, how is any of that relevant to a country that has so much more space and resources for people? The US is geographically and economically gigantic compared to Singapore, proportionally we can take on orders of magnitude more people than Singapore, so why would we try to apply the same policy? At 35 people per km^2 vs 8,100 per km^2, how on Earth could you possibly try to compare?

mieseratte 7y ago

> Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. They can and do. > And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans I would appreciate it if you did not place words in my mouth which I have not said. > Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it. Because I've witnessed first hand the problems of illegal immigration. I grew up in a community filled with them. Went to school with them. Befriended them, and watched many of them achieve citizenship. Witnessed illegal workers being paid below-legal wages, living three to a room so they could save every penny to send as remittance. I've seen them out compete the local blue collar laborers. Sorry I'm not willing to throw aside the working class so you can acquire cheaper goods and services. > Dang doesn't like it when these conversations get combative and protracted, so I'm going to stop replying. Ah yes, take the moral high-road after you've attempted to assassinate my character by calling me a xenophobe.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
diminoten 7y ago
I'm seriously not trying to take any high ground, this is an entirely practical problem, he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site. Totally not a high ground thing, I just don't want to get banned is all!
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > so I'm going to stop replying. > he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site. Regrettably, it would appear you haven't learned the lesson dang is trying to impart. I hope for the sake of your tenure that you one day find your inner peace.
  - diminoten 7y ago
    Haha I am a slow learner! I'm sorry that I upset you, seriously I am.

chrchang523 7y ago

Singapore's government is widely acknowledged to have one of the best track records in the world, when it comes to considering and then successfully implementing unpopular policies that nevertheless economically benefit the group. And immigration policy is one area they considered with fresh eyes; even the most radical open borders advocates were permitted to, and did, try to make their case in Singapore. What did they conclude the facts actually were? What is their immigration policy today? If one of you two is ignoring the facts, there's practically no question that it's you.

diminoten 7y ago
I'm confused, are you talking about this, a paper published in 2013 by the government of Singapore? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_White_Paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_White_Paper That research you're talking about (with fresh eyes) concluded they needed more immigrants, not fewer. I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. Singapore's immigration laws are in what way relevant to the US? It's an "island city state" according to Wikipedia, not really at all comparable, but if one wanted to make a comparison, the government of Singapore suggested opening its own borders further, which supports what I was saying. Did you think I was advocating for a more closed border?
- chrchang523 7y ago
  Singapore treats high-skill and low-skill immigrants quite differently. That's the centerpiece of their policy, and entirely relevant to the West. Compare Canada/Australia/NZ's race-blind (and high-volume, especially relative to their population sizes!) but points-based immigration systems, and much lower severity of populist revolt in those countries, with the problems in the US and European countries that had been executing less selective policies against the wishes of their citizens.
  - diminoten 7y ago
    Against the wishes of their citizens? Since when? Also, how is any of that relevant to a country that has so much more space and resources for people? The US is geographically and economically gigantic compared to Singapore, proportionally we can take on orders of magnitude more people than Singapore, so why would we try to apply the same policy? At 35 people per km^2 vs 8,100 per km^2, how on Earth could you possibly try to compare?