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For me: I grew up in Europe in times where the wall came down in Germany, a shared currency was established (Euro) and all European borders within Europe where

For me: I grew up in Europe in times where the wall came down in Germany, a shared currency was established (Euro) and all European borders within Europe where suddenly passable without passport, visa checks, money exchange, someone judging you, etc.. Of course this caused other problems to solve, but the general feeling of freedom and being able to go some other country and even being able to live and work there was very liberating for me and motivated me to travel a lot (easy and relatively cheap in Europe by railroad). I don't want to argue whether or not this is possible for the whole world and what it would take, but it surely is a dream for me to live in a (global) society that makes this possible.

luckylion 7y ago
Have you been to other European countries before Schengen? I keep hearing how much easier it is now that you don't need your passport for travelling in Europe. I've traveled quite a bit before Schengen and the Euro went into effect, and I've never spent more than five minutes at a European border, and rarely more than five minutes exchanging currency. Granted, it's easier to know that they are robbing you at some tourist trap if you don't need to convert amounts in your head, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing if you want to enjoy your trip...
- gattilorenz 7y ago
  That's for traveling, and the same currency is quite nice, especially when visiting multiple places in one trip. But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Not to mention the agreements between European countries (e.g. If you move, there's no need to change your driving license)
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Is it though? I mean it's sure helpful if that's what you want to do, but it's not like that was impossible before. Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) it seems to be a small win, easing the bureaucratic process for a small number of citizens (that, I suppose, in Western Europe are generally wealthier than the average, and wouldn't exactly have to jump through hoops before).
    - gattilorenz 7y ago
      No, not wealthier than average, at least looking at all the expats I've met. It is not about the money, at least for me. I refer to the feeling of insecurity you get when your studies or contract are over, you don't yet have a new one, and you might have to take all your belongings and move out of a country where you lived for years, just because you can't renew your visa. As an EU citizen outside my home country but still in the EU, I don't have that. Many PhDs from Turkey I have met ended up like that. You don't want to even risk that kind of situation. Also in the past people moved abroad for work. Now it's easier, from a bureaucratic and economic perspective. Doesn't mean everyone WANTS to move: most people are perfectly happy living in their hometown, or at least same country, as long as you can make a living there[1]. But this should not surprise anyone, it's not that most refugees would leave their countries if they could find a job and security in their homeland . [1] btw, I have no stats but the feeling is that most internal migration in Europe is from the poorest countries and/or social classes to the richest countries. Which, again, makes a lot of sense...
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      > Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) [citation needed] There are vast numbers of cross-border workers and internal (to the EU) migrants. I don't have numbers, but I really think that statement is misleading.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        Most (I'm going out on a limb here and would say: the super majority) lives and works in their home country. It's different for tourism where most have traveled to different countries, but it's not like 30% of the population in the EU is living outside the country they were born in.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  I'm half German, half Croat. Granted, I was just a kid, but I can remember hour long waiting times at the borders. Even today, with only the border Croatia-Slovenia remaining (and, back to Germany, our beloved Interior Minister's Grenzpolizei checking tourists for not carrying refugees), the waiting times can be hours. The earlier we can get rid of this crap, the better. What is also a benefit of ever more unification across Europe: communication. Family vacations in Croatia meant next to no communication with friends back in Germany as phone calls and SMSes were ludicruously expensive, and mobile internet roaming all but unaffordable. Now? No roaming charges any more.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    “phone calls and SMSes were ludicruously expensive, and mobile internet roaming all but unaffordable. Now? No roaming charges any more.” except Switzerland.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  Multi-hour delays at European borders were not unusual before, and persist at the external land borders of the Schengen area. The common currency is valuable for more than just tourism purposes. A business in one country can much more easily trade with businesses in other countries if it doesn't have to deal with currency risk and the resultant necessary hedging, and if the business is selling services to consumers the single currency allows them to compete with businesses across the whole Eurozone on a level playing field. That's just considering currency; the single market is of course a much broader concept.
brokenkebab 7y ago
I think you're mixing up travel without a hassle which everybody likes to exist, with open borders which is a way more complex idea. EU is not an open-border place, I, for example, has to obtain visa to enter it.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  It is you who are mixing up inner and outer. The EU is an open border place (or at least, the Schengen area is) for those who reside there. For some other countries' nationals to enter a visum is required. The EU was never about 'open borders' at the boundaries, in fact there are a lot of requirements on the boundary states and they get compensation for that.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    don’t all countries in the EU have a 3 month stay period after which you have to register as a resident? i’m a european that has lived in multiple EU countries and the hassle of moving between them is more or less the same as moving across the globe.
  - brokenkebab 7y ago
    The EU was never about 'open borders' at the boundaries That's exactly what I wrote. Open borders as an idea is about global free movement. Schengen on the other hand is just a bigger kind of fenced area, international agreement simplifying travel and trade for citizens of participating countries. When @cojxd asked "For whom is open borders a dream?" I'm pretty sure it was meant as an idea/ideology. Because, if someone agrees to lift this border, but not that - there's simply nothing to discuss. It's a kind of position acceptable for almost everyone.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      > Because, if someone agrees to lift this border, but not that - there's simply nothing to discuss. You're pretty wrong about that. Borders are a nuisance, and lifting all of them is a good long term goal to have. But in the intermediary we can only move so fast. Saying that you don't want to discuss lifting individual borders as long as we are not lifting all borders is like saying you don't want to make a first step as long as we're not agreeing to walk all the way to the destination. That's not how societal change is achieved, it is achieved one step at the time, usually without lofty long term goals and every border that falls is one more step along the way towards open borders and should be applauded.
rconti 7y ago
I have an EU passport and have still yet to live there. I need to act fast and relocate from the US for a few years while the dream is still alive :-/

luckylion 7y ago

Have you been to other European countries before Schengen? I keep hearing how much easier it is now that you don't need your passport for travelling in Europe. I've traveled quite a bit before Schengen and the Euro went into effect, and I've never spent more than five minutes at a European border, and rarely more than five minutes exchanging currency. Granted, it's easier to know that they are robbing you at some tourist trap if you don't need to convert amounts in your head, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing if you want to enjoy your trip...

gattilorenz 7y ago
That's for traveling, and the same currency is quite nice, especially when visiting multiple places in one trip. But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Not to mention the agreements between European countries (e.g. If you move, there's no need to change your driving license)
- luckylion 7y ago
  > But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Is it though? I mean it's sure helpful if that's what you want to do, but it's not like that was impossible before. Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) it seems to be a small win, easing the bureaucratic process for a small number of citizens (that, I suppose, in Western Europe are generally wealthier than the average, and wouldn't exactly have to jump through hoops before).
  - gattilorenz 7y ago
    No, not wealthier than average, at least looking at all the expats I've met. It is not about the money, at least for me. I refer to the feeling of insecurity you get when your studies or contract are over, you don't yet have a new one, and you might have to take all your belongings and move out of a country where you lived for years, just because you can't renew your visa. As an EU citizen outside my home country but still in the EU, I don't have that. Many PhDs from Turkey I have met ended up like that. You don't want to even risk that kind of situation. Also in the past people moved abroad for work. Now it's easier, from a bureaucratic and economic perspective. Doesn't mean everyone WANTS to move: most people are perfectly happy living in their hometown, or at least same country, as long as you can make a living there[1]. But this should not surprise anyone, it's not that most refugees would leave their countries if they could find a job and security in their homeland . [1] btw, I have no stats but the feeling is that most internal migration in Europe is from the poorest countries and/or social classes to the richest countries. Which, again, makes a lot of sense...
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    > Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) [citation needed] There are vast numbers of cross-border workers and internal (to the EU) migrants. I don't have numbers, but I really think that statement is misleading.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      Most (I'm going out on a limb here and would say: the super majority) lives and works in their home country. It's different for tourism where most have traveled to different countries, but it's not like 30% of the population in the EU is living outside the country they were born in.
mschuster91 7y ago
I'm half German, half Croat. Granted, I was just a kid, but I can remember hour long waiting times at the borders. Even today, with only the border Croatia-Slovenia remaining (and, back to Germany, our beloved Interior Minister's Grenzpolizei checking tourists for not carrying refugees), the waiting times can be hours. The earlier we can get rid of this crap, the better. What is also a benefit of ever more unification across Europe: communication. Family vacations in Croatia meant next to no communication with friends back in Germany as phone calls and SMSes were ludicruously expensive, and mobile internet roaming all but unaffordable. Now? No roaming charges any more.
- kmlx 7y ago
  “phone calls and SMSes were ludicruously expensive, and mobile internet roaming all but unaffordable. Now? No roaming charges any more.” except Switzerland.
_-___________-_ 7y ago
Multi-hour delays at European borders were not unusual before, and persist at the external land borders of the Schengen area. The common currency is valuable for more than just tourism purposes. A business in one country can much more easily trade with businesses in other countries if it doesn't have to deal with currency risk and the resultant necessary hedging, and if the business is selling services to consumers the single currency allows them to compete with businesses across the whole Eurozone on a level playing field. That's just considering currency; the single market is of course a much broader concept.

brokenkebab 7y ago

I think you're mixing up travel without a hassle which everybody likes to exist, with open borders which is a way more complex idea. EU is not an open-border place, I, for example, has to obtain visa to enter it.

jacquesm 7y ago
It is you who are mixing up inner and outer. The EU is an open border place (or at least, the Schengen area is) for those who reside there. For some other countries' nationals to enter a visum is required. The EU was never about 'open borders' at the boundaries, in fact there are a lot of requirements on the boundary states and they get compensation for that.
- kmlx 7y ago
  don’t all countries in the EU have a 3 month stay period after which you have to register as a resident? i’m a european that has lived in multiple EU countries and the hassle of moving between them is more or less the same as moving across the globe.
- brokenkebab 7y ago
  The EU was never about 'open borders' at the boundaries That's exactly what I wrote. Open borders as an idea is about global free movement. Schengen on the other hand is just a bigger kind of fenced area, international agreement simplifying travel and trade for citizens of participating countries. When @cojxd asked "For whom is open borders a dream?" I'm pretty sure it was meant as an idea/ideology. Because, if someone agrees to lift this border, but not that - there's simply nothing to discuss. It's a kind of position acceptable for almost everyone.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    > Because, if someone agrees to lift this border, but not that - there's simply nothing to discuss. You're pretty wrong about that. Borders are a nuisance, and lifting all of them is a good long term goal to have. But in the intermediary we can only move so fast. Saying that you don't want to discuss lifting individual borders as long as we are not lifting all borders is like saying you don't want to make a first step as long as we're not agreeing to walk all the way to the destination. That's not how societal change is achieved, it is achieved one step at the time, usually without lofty long term goals and every border that falls is one more step along the way towards open borders and should be applauded.

rconti 7y ago

I have an EU passport and have still yet to live there. I need to act fast and relocate from the US for a few years while the dream is still alive :-/