5 ms·

I don't have enough MTG knowledge to plow through the article, so I hope not to appear lazy by asking this: is there a version of MTG that isn't pay to win?

aceldama 7y ago
For constructed format(where you don't open packs to build decks, and build from cards you already own), there are financial threshold you need to overcome to be competitive. Afterwards, you STILL need to be proficient of the game and aware of meta games shifts.
purpleflame1257 7y ago
Yes. There are many formats where competitive performance and cost of play are largely uncorrelated. However, because the most popular format of Magic has rotating card pools, this may be true some years and untrue in others. Recently there has also been a significant increase in popularity of an all-commons format known as Pauper. For Limited gameplay, where you build a deck out of packs opened at the table, the cost of entry is essentially the cards. So paper MTG is pay-to-play, not pay-to-win.
Agentlien 7y ago
Honestly, I don't think you can make a fair case for Magic being really pay to win. There's always a sort of buy in depending on which format you play, but once you've spent a bit of money on some cards it's usually more skill in deck building and playing than money spent. Personally, I play mostly Modern in a casual way, but even when people bring competitive magic decks and we swap decks the same players usually win.
- moate 7y ago
  I think you can only make a case for the game being pay to win. "Once you've spent a bit of money on some cards" means I can be the greatest player of all time, but if I haven't paid for the cards, I can't win. They don't just give you these cards for being good. You can't find them scattered around the environment. You have to buy them, somehow. What is pay to win in your mind? The phrase generally means "no matter how good you are, if you are unable to buy a certain set of cards you can't truly compete in the meta". There are more or less expensive decks, but typically the cheapest of the best decks in any format cost $50+ Edit- This is for constructed formats. Obviously sealed is more of a pure skill, low cost format.
  - chrchang523 7y ago
    There is a higher entry price than most other games of skill, yes. However, "pay to win" is generally understood to mean that there are significant marginal returns to spending thousands of dollars past the entry price paid by the typical player. This isn't really true of Magic: the Gathering.
    - moate 7y ago
      I've never seen a game where, assuming everyone had unlimited funds and was able to buy anything, that skill didn't then come into play to decide who was the best player. "Pay-to-win" is one of those weasel phrases that doesn't really mean anything specifically. What is a game that represents "pay-to-win" in your mind? I think the definition you're using might be "generally understood" but it also might be generally understood that "pay-to-win" means "high[1] cost of entry" [1]-high cost is relative to each person. could be 10 bucks, could be $1,000
      - neutronicus 7y ago
        Magic can be money-positive for decent players (ignoring opportunity cost). I don't mean pros - if you're just good enough to win prizes at local tournaments and you keep abreast of card prices the hobby can more or less finance itself.
        moate 7y ago
        I'm just going to keep spamming this: Can someone name a "Pay-to-win" game for me? A game where money, and not skill, is what wins you the game? I think the greater point I'm going for here is that if magic isn't pay-to-win, then there's no such thing as a pay-to-win game.
        chrchang523 7y ago
        Yes, there are lots of freemium mobile games which satisfy the "pay-to-win" definition I gave in a way that Magic: the Gathering does not. (Clash of Clans and Clash Royale are two very popular examples that I'm aware of.)
- TimPC 7y ago
  MTG is pay to win (or at least has a very high table stakes) because most of the skill comes in deckbuilding not in play. There aren't enough play decisions in the game to gain a large piloting edge consistently. When most of the skill is deckbuilding you basically need access to the whole pool of cards in order to play the best deck for the current metagame (this changes a lot online). For example, bant shift was a really good deck for GP denver, it was a very bad deck within a week after GP denver as people were prepared for it and played decks that had good matchups vs it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
acpetrov 7y ago
It's pay to play
- moate 7y ago
  This is the most accurate statement on this debate.
- Mikulas0 7y ago
  It's pay to play, but I think you also have to tack on that you can pay more to win a bit more (to a certain extent) and this is almost necessary to do well at events. Not that low power, casual magic isn't fun though.
40four 7y ago
Short answer... there is NO version of Magic that is 'pay to win'. I think you are getting caught up in that fact that it's not a cheap game to play. Long answer. It is an incredibly expensive game to play if you are trying to win in highly competitive environments. I think people tend to mistake the high price tag for, 'Oh well if I don't spend hundreds of dollars I'll never win, or be good at the game'. This is just false. It is erroneous to think, that just because you spend $500 on a top 8 standard deck you can just walk into your local game store and clean house. Other people have expensive decks too, and know how to pilot them better than you until you put in the hours. You will loose to more experienced & skilled players. If you want a great magic experience for a small amount of money, you should try getting into limited. Draft & sealed deck. These games are an even playing field. Decks are build from the cards opened from sealed packs, so there is no advantage gained from owning an expensive deck, or knowing how to pilot your deck The only way to gain advantage is skill. Skill in understanding the format. Skill in understanding what cards to take in the draft & when, deck building, and importantly... your fundamental understanding of the game rules and navigating the combat phase. Magic is one of the most complex, skill intensive games in the world. Limited Magic is the most skill intensive version of it, and it will only cost you $15 to get in a draft at your local store. It's one of the reasons it is so popular. It's a game where you can always learn something new & always find ways to level up. Anyone who tries to say otherwise doesn't get it. It is unfortunate how much it does cost though, for anyone who's goal is to be successful at the competitive level.
senectus1 7y ago
It depends on the format. I'm a huge fan of booster drafting. it totally levels the playing field and is a great challenge every time.

aceldama 7y ago

For constructed format(where you don't open packs to build decks, and build from cards you already own), there are financial threshold you need to overcome to be competitive. Afterwards, you STILL need to be proficient of the game and aware of meta games shifts.

purpleflame1257 7y ago

Yes. There are many formats where competitive performance and cost of play are largely uncorrelated. However, because the most popular format of Magic has rotating card pools, this may be true some years and untrue in others. Recently there has also been a significant increase in popularity of an all-commons format known as Pauper. For Limited gameplay, where you build a deck out of packs opened at the table, the cost of entry is essentially the cards. So paper MTG is pay-to-play, not pay-to-win.

Agentlien 7y ago

Honestly, I don't think you can make a fair case for Magic being really pay to win. There's always a sort of buy in depending on which format you play, but once you've spent a bit of money on some cards it's usually more skill in deck building and playing than money spent. Personally, I play mostly Modern in a casual way, but even when people bring competitive magic decks and we swap decks the same players usually win.

moate 7y ago
I think you can only make a case for the game being pay to win. "Once you've spent a bit of money on some cards" means I can be the greatest player of all time, but if I haven't paid for the cards, I can't win. They don't just give you these cards for being good. You can't find them scattered around the environment. You have to buy them, somehow. What is pay to win in your mind? The phrase generally means "no matter how good you are, if you are unable to buy a certain set of cards you can't truly compete in the meta". There are more or less expensive decks, but typically the cheapest of the best decks in any format cost $50+ Edit- This is for constructed formats. Obviously sealed is more of a pure skill, low cost format.
- chrchang523 7y ago
  There is a higher entry price than most other games of skill, yes. However, "pay to win" is generally understood to mean that there are significant marginal returns to spending thousands of dollars past the entry price paid by the typical player. This isn't really true of Magic: the Gathering.
  - moate 7y ago
    I've never seen a game where, assuming everyone had unlimited funds and was able to buy anything, that skill didn't then come into play to decide who was the best player. "Pay-to-win" is one of those weasel phrases that doesn't really mean anything specifically. What is a game that represents "pay-to-win" in your mind? I think the definition you're using might be "generally understood" but it also might be generally understood that "pay-to-win" means "high[1] cost of entry" [1]-high cost is relative to each person. could be 10 bucks, could be $1,000
    - neutronicus 7y ago
      Magic can be money-positive for decent players (ignoring opportunity cost). I don't mean pros - if you're just good enough to win prizes at local tournaments and you keep abreast of card prices the hobby can more or less finance itself.
      - moate 7y ago
        I'm just going to keep spamming this: Can someone name a "Pay-to-win" game for me? A game where money, and not skill, is what wins you the game? I think the greater point I'm going for here is that if magic isn't pay-to-win, then there's no such thing as a pay-to-win game.
        chrchang523 7y ago
        Yes, there are lots of freemium mobile games which satisfy the "pay-to-win" definition I gave in a way that Magic: the Gathering does not. (Clash of Clans and Clash Royale are two very popular examples that I'm aware of.)
TimPC 7y ago
MTG is pay to win (or at least has a very high table stakes) because most of the skill comes in deckbuilding not in play. There aren't enough play decisions in the game to gain a large piloting edge consistently. When most of the skill is deckbuilding you basically need access to the whole pool of cards in order to play the best deck for the current metagame (this changes a lot online). For example, bant shift was a really good deck for GP denver, it was a very bad deck within a week after GP denver as people were prepared for it and played decks that had good matchups vs it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

acpetrov 7y ago

It's pay to play

moate 7y ago
This is the most accurate statement on this debate.
Mikulas0 7y ago
It's pay to play, but I think you also have to tack on that you can pay more to win a bit more (to a certain extent) and this is almost necessary to do well at events. Not that low power, casual magic isn't fun though.

40four 7y ago

Short answer... there is NO version of Magic that is 'pay to win'. I think you are getting caught up in that fact that it's not a cheap game to play. Long answer. It is an incredibly expensive game to play if you are trying to win in highly competitive environments. I think people tend to mistake the high price tag for, 'Oh well if I don't spend hundreds of dollars I'll never win, or be good at the game'. This is just false. It is erroneous to think, that just because you spend $500 on a top 8 standard deck you can just walk into your local game store and clean house. Other people have expensive decks too, and know how to pilot them better than you until you put in the hours. You will loose to more experienced & skilled players. If you want a great magic experience for a small amount of money, you should try getting into limited. Draft & sealed deck. These games are an even playing field. Decks are build from the cards opened from sealed packs, so there is no advantage gained from owning an expensive deck, or knowing how to pilot your deck The only way to gain advantage is skill. Skill in understanding the format. Skill in understanding what cards to take in the draft & when, deck building, and importantly... your fundamental understanding of the game rules and navigating the combat phase. Magic is one of the most complex, skill intensive games in the world. Limited Magic is the most skill intensive version of it, and it will only cost you $15 to get in a draft at your local store. It's one of the reasons it is so popular. It's a game where you can always learn something new & always find ways to level up. Anyone who tries to say otherwise doesn't get it. It is unfortunate how much it does cost though, for anyone who's goal is to be successful at the competitive level.

senectus1 7y ago

It depends on the format. I'm a huge fan of booster drafting. it totally levels the playing field and is a great challenge every time.