4 ms·

> drug dealers and petty crime thrived because there was poor access for police vehicles and other types of law enforcement Interesting take, not supported by

> drug dealers and petty crime thrived because there was poor access for police vehicles and other types of law enforcement Interesting take, not supported by the Wikipedia article. Don't Canadian police have access to bikes, motorcycles, or (gasp) horses that might access areas where cars can't go? What the Wikipedia article does say is this: "The apartments lacked appeal though, poorly constructed, and with a lack of amenities to support the density spike; many prospective tenants instead moved to suburban houses in the developing areas of Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York. The area quickly became much poorer. Four buildings were later built by the province to provide public housing." Shoddy housing attracts those who can't afford better, and poverty breeds petty crime, that much is true. Blaming it on missing car access is original. Personally I would be more worried about access difficulties for firefighters.

dmix 7y ago
I lived next to it for a number of years and often visited friends who lived there. I’m very familiar with it and the problems it has. The idea of these concrete enclosed blocks of land being havens for crime and gangs is hardly controversial. This isn’t the open walkable streets of some nice European city or even downtown Toronto. It’s isolated and poorly maintained. Basically what people have come to expect from city run and planned housing from the past generations.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  I don't think they're disputing that it's crime-ridden, just that it's crime-ridden because police cars can't get in.
  - dmix 7y ago
    That's not the only reason why but it's a big one. It's about visual protection with lots of narrow dark alleys and enclosed spaces connecting to endless stairwells. Making surveillance far more difficult and easy for people to disappear into it the minute a watcher sees police enter. Don't underestimate just how lazy and safety obsessed Cops, so they'd need a partner to go with them to enter on foot. Police do bike through once in a while when it's summer, usually in groups of 4-6 but Toronto isn't always accessible by bike during winter. Plus I rarely saw bike cops at night like you do cars cruising around. These isolated places with towering buildings, tons of concrete, and only roads deep outside on the edges creates an excellent environment for shootings, robberies, and drug dealing to take place. Either way it increases the effort it takes and almost all of them have full time security on site as the problems are constant. Down the road there are 3 large buildings one by one lined on a major road which are equally in disrepair and impoverished, and they dont have people constantly hanging out side against the walls next to rear stairwell entrances, while everyone else is scared to go there at night. The keep their business inside or out of view. There's a hundred examples of these places that are set up like this in NYC and Chicago. Cabrini Green had the same issue with too many enclosed areas where people hung around constantly. The design was counter to open and friendly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini%E2%80%93Green_Homes?oldformat=true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini%E2%80%93Green_Homes?ol...
    - zwaps 7y ago
      Here in Germany we have a similar issue in some of these project areas. They are called "Angsträume", translation is "spaces of fear". Dark, secluded spaces, staircases and so forth, where people feel unsafe.
    - pas 7y ago
      Hm, what's the difference between St. James Town and Békásmegyer? (The latter is perfectly safe, yet looks the same. And it's not a fancy upscale area either.) https://www.google.com/maps/place/St.+James+Town,+Toronto,+ON,+Canada/@43.669874,-79.3741347,620m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d4cb51a3891935:0xa11c73fe81eacdd0!8m2!3d43.6708666!4d-79.3733064 https://www.google.com/maps/place/St.+James+Town,+Toronto,+O... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Budapest,+B%C3%A9k%C3%A1smegyer/@47.5995538,19.0496044,493m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4741d9d8bc70bbcd:0x1c26347858a7ca9a!8m2!3d47.6031662!4d19.0530305 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Budapest,+B%C3%A9k%C3%A1sm... > These isolated places How are they isolated? There are perfectly fine streets and parking lots there. What do you mean roads only on the edges? And where are the dark alleys? Are there no public street lights? > and they dont have people constantly hanging out side against the walls next to rear stairwell entrances, while everyone else is scared to go there at night. What? So what if people are hanging out somewhere? Are they disturbing the tenants? Do they do something illegal? Do people report them to law enforcement? Does law enforcement act on this?
  - pas 7y ago
    How .. how can anyone believe police cars can't get in? People use trucks to move their stuff/furniture there. There are proper paved streets, parking places and so on. You can check on any satellite view service.

dmix 7y ago

I lived next to it for a number of years and often visited friends who lived there. I’m very familiar with it and the problems it has. The idea of these concrete enclosed blocks of land being havens for crime and gangs is hardly controversial. This isn’t the open walkable streets of some nice European city or even downtown Toronto. It’s isolated and poorly maintained. Basically what people have come to expect from city run and planned housing from the past generations.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
I don't think they're disputing that it's crime-ridden, just that it's crime-ridden because police cars can't get in.
- dmix 7y ago
  That's not the only reason why but it's a big one. It's about visual protection with lots of narrow dark alleys and enclosed spaces connecting to endless stairwells. Making surveillance far more difficult and easy for people to disappear into it the minute a watcher sees police enter. Don't underestimate just how lazy and safety obsessed Cops, so they'd need a partner to go with them to enter on foot. Police do bike through once in a while when it's summer, usually in groups of 4-6 but Toronto isn't always accessible by bike during winter. Plus I rarely saw bike cops at night like you do cars cruising around. These isolated places with towering buildings, tons of concrete, and only roads deep outside on the edges creates an excellent environment for shootings, robberies, and drug dealing to take place. Either way it increases the effort it takes and almost all of them have full time security on site as the problems are constant. Down the road there are 3 large buildings one by one lined on a major road which are equally in disrepair and impoverished, and they dont have people constantly hanging out side against the walls next to rear stairwell entrances, while everyone else is scared to go there at night. The keep their business inside or out of view. There's a hundred examples of these places that are set up like this in NYC and Chicago. Cabrini Green had the same issue with too many enclosed areas where people hung around constantly. The design was counter to open and friendly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini%E2%80%93Green_Homes?oldformat=true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini%E2%80%93Green_Homes?ol...
  - zwaps 7y ago
    Here in Germany we have a similar issue in some of these project areas. They are called "Angsträume", translation is "spaces of fear". Dark, secluded spaces, staircases and so forth, where people feel unsafe.
  - pas 7y ago
    Hm, what's the difference between St. James Town and Békásmegyer? (The latter is perfectly safe, yet looks the same. And it's not a fancy upscale area either.) https://www.google.com/maps/place/St.+James+Town,+Toronto,+ON,+Canada/@43.669874,-79.3741347,620m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d4cb51a3891935:0xa11c73fe81eacdd0!8m2!3d43.6708666!4d-79.3733064 https://www.google.com/maps/place/St.+James+Town,+Toronto,+O... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Budapest,+B%C3%A9k%C3%A1smegyer/@47.5995538,19.0496044,493m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4741d9d8bc70bbcd:0x1c26347858a7ca9a!8m2!3d47.6031662!4d19.0530305 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Budapest,+B%C3%A9k%C3%A1sm... > These isolated places How are they isolated? There are perfectly fine streets and parking lots there. What do you mean roads only on the edges? And where are the dark alleys? Are there no public street lights? > and they dont have people constantly hanging out side against the walls next to rear stairwell entrances, while everyone else is scared to go there at night. What? So what if people are hanging out somewhere? Are they disturbing the tenants? Do they do something illegal? Do people report them to law enforcement? Does law enforcement act on this?
- pas 7y ago
  How .. how can anyone believe police cars can't get in? People use trucks to move their stuff/furniture there. There are proper paved streets, parking places and so on. You can check on any satellite view service.