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Western society rose to prominence because of a few values: respect for property rights, intellectual property and personal freedom. America is far from perfect

by anonu 7y ago

Western society rose to prominence because of a few values: respect for property rights, intellectual property and personal freedom. America is far from perfect but was based on these ideals. It's maybe a simplistic view of the world and East vs West... But the recent HK protests can be rationalized through this lens. I think respect for intellectual property and human rights will determine whether China continues it's march forward or not...

dragonsh 7y ago
Western societies rise to prominence is due to acceptance of scientific temperament with a balanced moral view looking beyond religion and tribal mentality. They challenged the established religious groups and tribal rules. Traveled across oceans and built global trade. Property rights and all you described are just means which are just subservient not the main reason. China is moving forward due to the same scientific temperament, may be need to supplement more moral education to build a balance. But that's a normal process given it took out 1.4 billion people out of poverty and making them one of the largest middle income economy and slowly moving towards developed. You can see an example in India where all values you described are part of its constitution (probably the only nation where there is a chapter on human rights in its Constitution) and government proclaim to protect it. Still has one of the highest poverty levels in the world. India needs more scientific temperament to come out of its religious tribal mentality and need more science education. The problem you described of Hong Kong is its own making where people accepted living in prison cell size house and rely on get rich quick scheme when China was closed which doesn't work anymore. So it's just paying the price of its own choice.
- alienallys 7y ago
  Western countries rose to prominence because they were built on Slaves, Colonies and Industrial revolution which was byproduct of World Wars. The India you're talking is India who got depleted, sucked, trampled country after 2 centuries of British hegemony. Stop your illogical and thinly vieled racism to justify why countries like India are the way they are like.
  - hungryhobo 7y ago
    As did China. And I didn't think 'India needs more scientific temperament to come out of its religious tribal mentality and need more science education.' is racism at all
    - alienallys 7y ago
      Yes it's not racism but Hinduphobia. And since author seems to attach this Hinduphobia with development of India and current state of poverty, he's indirectly saying Hinduism is the cause; which is what our British colonizers used to say. So it's not racism but Imperialism laced with Hinduphobia.
      - dragonsh 7y ago
        You are too sensitive don't know from where you got religion=Hinduism only. My comments were based on what I have read from reputed journalists. Probably you are one of those people I read about who are staunch supporter of current administration who convert every talk into Hinduism. Using illogical unscientific logic to come up with weird conclusions.
        alienallys 7y ago
        "Reputed journalists" You're what I thought, a closet elitist who thinks rest of the masses are dumb just because they don't agree with you, and try to label abusing the power journalism. In a sense you're part of psuedo-intellectual bigotry.
  - dragonsh 7y ago
    After world war II, Japan and Germany did wonders again due to scientific temperament, they were destroyed worse than Indian colonial rule. Japan and in earlier period five forces colonized parts of China. Korea from 1910-45 as Japan colony still developed after world war II due to science. Indeed Nehru (first govt head of free India) put the foundations of scientific thinking in India. Built great institutions and foundations of IIT, BARC. But India capitulated it's advance to religion and tribal mentality. Funny enough even today people like religion based leaders and chosen a government whose head proclaims in a science conference that before England invaded, India invented atomic bomb, aeroplane during ancient time of Lord Ram (a deity) and invitro fertilization during Mahabharata (religious book). India really needs a science revolution who can throw such leaders out and chose at least an educated one who understands science, that's the only way to bring up scientific temperament and progress. This will help avoid attacking neighbors or take religion driven populist changes to divert attention from real issues. I understand racism in Indian context means untouchables, social class hierarchy, killing a person for transporting cows or marrying out of prescribed social order. I am not talking about it.
roboys 7y ago
It's actually a lot simpler, stealing gold works. It's old fashioned but they extracted $45 trillion from India alone, think about how much was taken from Africa and China....also at it's peak opium deals in China accounted for 35% of the UK's GDP (expect similar numbers in the US)... Explanations of western growth that exclude economic history seem suspicious to me, a lot of the true story & criminality is hidden in the numbers. Of the few ways to avoid the Malthusian trap, the West did it by robbing people at gun point.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > It's actually a lot simpler, stealing gold works. Except how did the West get into a position of being more powerful than the rest of the world? Around 1600, Western countries, the Ottomans, Mughal-ruled India, and Imperial China weren't too different in development (the non-Euro folks could actually have been considered more developed). By the late-1700s / early-1800s the Europeans were steamrolling over everyone. What changed in those ~150 years? A good book on the topic is Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution by Toby Huff: * https://www.cambridge.org/9780521170529 https://www.cambridge.org/9780521170529 It explores an interesting accidental historical experiment: the telescope was invented in 1608 in the Netherlands, and in the next ~20 years had spread to most of the world's major civilizations. What various cultures did with it (or not) explains why Europe took off. See also The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West by the same author: * https://www.cambridge.org/9781107130210 https://www.cambridge.org/9781107130210

by anonu 7y ago

dragonsh 7y ago

Western societies rise to prominence is due to acceptance of scientific temperament with a balanced moral view looking beyond religion and tribal mentality. They challenged the established religious groups and tribal rules. Traveled across oceans and built global trade. Property rights and all you described are just means which are just subservient not the main reason. China is moving forward due to the same scientific temperament, may be need to supplement more moral education to build a balance. But that's a normal process given it took out 1.4 billion people out of poverty and making them one of the largest middle income economy and slowly moving towards developed. You can see an example in India where all values you described are part of its constitution (probably the only nation where there is a chapter on human rights in its Constitution) and government proclaim to protect it. Still has one of the highest poverty levels in the world. India needs more scientific temperament to come out of its religious tribal mentality and need more science education. The problem you described of Hong Kong is its own making where people accepted living in prison cell size house and rely on get rich quick scheme when China was closed which doesn't work anymore. So it's just paying the price of its own choice.

alienallys 7y ago
Western countries rose to prominence because they were built on Slaves, Colonies and Industrial revolution which was byproduct of World Wars. The India you're talking is India who got depleted, sucked, trampled country after 2 centuries of British hegemony. Stop your illogical and thinly vieled racism to justify why countries like India are the way they are like.
- hungryhobo 7y ago
  As did China. And I didn't think 'India needs more scientific temperament to come out of its religious tribal mentality and need more science education.' is racism at all
  - alienallys 7y ago
    Yes it's not racism but Hinduphobia. And since author seems to attach this Hinduphobia with development of India and current state of poverty, he's indirectly saying Hinduism is the cause; which is what our British colonizers used to say. So it's not racism but Imperialism laced with Hinduphobia.
    - dragonsh 7y ago
      You are too sensitive don't know from where you got religion=Hinduism only. My comments were based on what I have read from reputed journalists. Probably you are one of those people I read about who are staunch supporter of current administration who convert every talk into Hinduism. Using illogical unscientific logic to come up with weird conclusions.
      - alienallys 7y ago
        "Reputed journalists" You're what I thought, a closet elitist who thinks rest of the masses are dumb just because they don't agree with you, and try to label abusing the power journalism. In a sense you're part of psuedo-intellectual bigotry.
- dragonsh 7y ago
  After world war II, Japan and Germany did wonders again due to scientific temperament, they were destroyed worse than Indian colonial rule. Japan and in earlier period five forces colonized parts of China. Korea from 1910-45 as Japan colony still developed after world war II due to science. Indeed Nehru (first govt head of free India) put the foundations of scientific thinking in India. Built great institutions and foundations of IIT, BARC. But India capitulated it's advance to religion and tribal mentality. Funny enough even today people like religion based leaders and chosen a government whose head proclaims in a science conference that before England invaded, India invented atomic bomb, aeroplane during ancient time of Lord Ram (a deity) and invitro fertilization during Mahabharata (religious book). India really needs a science revolution who can throw such leaders out and chose at least an educated one who understands science, that's the only way to bring up scientific temperament and progress. This will help avoid attacking neighbors or take religion driven populist changes to divert attention from real issues. I understand racism in Indian context means untouchables, social class hierarchy, killing a person for transporting cows or marrying out of prescribed social order. I am not talking about it.

roboys 7y ago

It's actually a lot simpler, stealing gold works. It's old fashioned but they extracted $45 trillion from India alone, think about how much was taken from Africa and China....also at it's peak opium deals in China accounted for 35% of the UK's GDP (expect similar numbers in the US)... Explanations of western growth that exclude economic history seem suspicious to me, a lot of the true story & criminality is hidden in the numbers. Of the few ways to avoid the Malthusian trap, the West did it by robbing people at gun point.

throw0101a 7y ago
> It's actually a lot simpler, stealing gold works. Except how did the West get into a position of being more powerful than the rest of the world? Around 1600, Western countries, the Ottomans, Mughal-ruled India, and Imperial China weren't too different in development (the non-Euro folks could actually have been considered more developed). By the late-1700s / early-1800s the Europeans were steamrolling over everyone. What changed in those ~150 years? A good book on the topic is Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution by Toby Huff: * https://www.cambridge.org/9780521170529 https://www.cambridge.org/9780521170529 It explores an interesting accidental historical experiment: the telescope was invented in 1608 in the Netherlands, and in the next ~20 years had spread to most of the world's major civilizations. What various cultures did with it (or not) explains why Europe took off. See also The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West by the same author: * https://www.cambridge.org/9781107130210 https://www.cambridge.org/9781107130210