3 ms·

Are you personally a part of the linux community? I mean: Do you maintain some free tool, or are you essentially like those big corps who use free tools and nev

by Arnt 7y ago

Are you personally a part of the linux community? I mean: Do you maintain some free tool, or are you essentially like those big corps who use free tools and never pay pack?

geocar 7y ago
This is a tough question, at least for me. I do maintain a number of pieces of Free software, and have contributed (sometimes significantly) to a number of applications with wide(ish) use. I once got a kind note once from someone working in the film industry who told me my mtf/bkf tool saved their renders after a particularly nasty blunder involving their cluster and backup servers. I'm sure this probably saved them a quarter-million dollars or more, but none of that savings made it my way. And outside of that one email, over the last nearly thirty years I've received nothing else but abuse and nit. Forks, sure. Patches, a few. But the overwhelming attitude of the open source community is that I work for free, or fuck you. Well, fuck you guys right back! HN isn't unique in believing there's some kind of virtue if you can get one over on your fellow man and make a buck on his or her back. Everyone seems to be like that. And if someone complains about it, it turns personal quick, often attacking the economics as you have: Have I contributed more than I've taken? Has anyone? General criticisms of whataboutism and entitlement notwithstanding, this slippery slope doesn't go anywhere good, and despite how well-meaning your question might have been, the reality is it's never enough. Nobody does anything anymore who hasn't stood on the backs of someone else. This sucks. It sucks bad that Facebook and Google got me to work for free. And to sell ads, no less. How ashamed am I of that?
- Arnt 7y ago
  You emphasise free with an upper-case F. What does that emphasis really mean? I don't mean "well, gnu", I mean what is the deepest meaning of that emphasis? Do you, for example, think it's good or bad if others have the freedom to use your software to do things you heartily dislike? Or if users you heartily dislike have the freedom to use your software?
  - geocar 7y ago
    Dislike? I mean, I don't like strawberries, but I wouldn't think of prohibiting anyone from enjoying them. Why should I care? But, no, I don't believe other people should have the Freedom to do things I think are Wrong. I don't think anyone believes that. What exactly do you want to argue? Nobody is saying Google or Facebook is violating the letter of the law (here), but they are certainly abusing our goodwill. Shame on us for not setting the terms finely enough? Or shame on them for being dicks?
- ohithereyou 7y ago
  This is why I've had to step away from developing free software. The amount of negativity directed my way (profane rants, useless bug reports, spam, requests to use my software under a different license for free, straight up copyright violators) made it so working on free software was a net negative. I thank my lucky stars that younger me was smart enough to not associate my name with these projects because that would have only made the situation worse. I was able to make a clean break from the projects I was working on after tying up loose ends.
shoes_for_thee 7y ago
I'm part of one of those big companies that also maintains free tools and contributes back to the community because we have a vested interest in doing so. I would value our contributions back to the community at around $500k annually, based on the comp we dump into the teams working on those tools. Whether the shift of maintainership from unaffiliated individuals to corps is acceptable, beneficial, or harmful, is an open question.
- Arnt 7y ago
  Open and perhaps interesting, but the question I had in mind was: Are big corporations actually different from the rest of the open source users? I guess your employer uses a lot more open source than the tools you spend $500k/y on. So your employer contributes to some development and uses lots more. That's not qualitatively different from what I personally do.
  - shoes_for_thee 7y ago
    My response to that question is going to be pretty bad: maybe. corps have interests in building tools that help them with their businesses. individuals, i think, have interest in building cool shit. there was an article a while ago exploring the difference between the 'spirit' of oss in the 90s/00s compared to now, but that's hard to qualify. when i think of individual oss projects, my brain automatically goes to the old enlightenment window manager, and e12/e13 in particular. it was cool and not very useful compared to fvwm or afterstep, but i think the libraries rasterman worked on in the process wound up being useful elsewhere. but it's been a long time and i'm recovering from a migraine, so you know.. don't quote me.
bloopernova 7y ago
I try to donate $5 and $10 here and there as best I can. Looking back at paypal receipts I think I spend about $400 a year. It's not great, but it's probably more than most. Donating a bit of money can really help motivate some folks who would otherwise lose interest. You can also donate your time and create a few pull requests to help out.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Kudos for donating.

by Arnt 7y ago

Are you personally a part of the linux community? I mean: Do you maintain some free tool, or are you essentially like those big corps who use free tools and never pay pack?

geocar 7y ago

This is a tough question, at least for me. I do maintain a number of pieces of Free software, and have contributed (sometimes significantly) to a number of applications with wide(ish) use. I once got a kind note once from someone working in the film industry who told me my mtf/bkf tool saved their renders after a particularly nasty blunder involving their cluster and backup servers. I'm sure this probably saved them a quarter-million dollars or more, but none of that savings made it my way. And outside of that one email, over the last nearly thirty years I've received nothing else but abuse and nit. Forks, sure. Patches, a few. But the overwhelming attitude of the open source community is that I work for free, or fuck you. Well, fuck you guys right back! HN isn't unique in believing there's some kind of virtue if you can get one over on your fellow man and make a buck on his or her back. Everyone seems to be like that. And if someone complains about it, it turns personal quick, often attacking the economics as you have: Have I contributed more than I've taken? Has anyone? General criticisms of whataboutism and entitlement notwithstanding, this slippery slope doesn't go anywhere good, and despite how well-meaning your question might have been, the reality is it's never enough. Nobody does anything anymore who hasn't stood on the backs of someone else. This sucks. It sucks bad that Facebook and Google got me to work for free. And to sell ads, no less. How ashamed am I of that?

Arnt 7y ago
You emphasise free with an upper-case F. What does that emphasis really mean? I don't mean "well, gnu", I mean what is the deepest meaning of that emphasis? Do you, for example, think it's good or bad if others have the freedom to use your software to do things you heartily dislike? Or if users you heartily dislike have the freedom to use your software?
- geocar 7y ago
  Dislike? I mean, I don't like strawberries, but I wouldn't think of prohibiting anyone from enjoying them. Why should I care? But, no, I don't believe other people should have the Freedom to do things I think are Wrong. I don't think anyone believes that. What exactly do you want to argue? Nobody is saying Google or Facebook is violating the letter of the law (here), but they are certainly abusing our goodwill. Shame on us for not setting the terms finely enough? Or shame on them for being dicks?
ohithereyou 7y ago
This is why I've had to step away from developing free software. The amount of negativity directed my way (profane rants, useless bug reports, spam, requests to use my software under a different license for free, straight up copyright violators) made it so working on free software was a net negative. I thank my lucky stars that younger me was smart enough to not associate my name with these projects because that would have only made the situation worse. I was able to make a clean break from the projects I was working on after tying up loose ends.

shoes_for_thee 7y ago

I'm part of one of those big companies that also maintains free tools and contributes back to the community because we have a vested interest in doing so. I would value our contributions back to the community at around $500k annually, based on the comp we dump into the teams working on those tools. Whether the shift of maintainership from unaffiliated individuals to corps is acceptable, beneficial, or harmful, is an open question.

Arnt 7y ago
Open and perhaps interesting, but the question I had in mind was: Are big corporations actually different from the rest of the open source users? I guess your employer uses a lot more open source than the tools you spend $500k/y on. So your employer contributes to some development and uses lots more. That's not qualitatively different from what I personally do.
- shoes_for_thee 7y ago
  My response to that question is going to be pretty bad: maybe. corps have interests in building tools that help them with their businesses. individuals, i think, have interest in building cool shit. there was an article a while ago exploring the difference between the 'spirit' of oss in the 90s/00s compared to now, but that's hard to qualify. when i think of individual oss projects, my brain automatically goes to the old enlightenment window manager, and e12/e13 in particular. it was cool and not very useful compared to fvwm or afterstep, but i think the libraries rasterman worked on in the process wound up being useful elsewhere. but it's been a long time and i'm recovering from a migraine, so you know.. don't quote me.

bloopernova 7y ago

I try to donate $5 and $10 here and there as best I can. Looking back at paypal receipts I think I spend about $400 a year. It's not great, but it's probably more than most. Donating a bit of money can really help motivate some folks who would otherwise lose interest. You can also donate your time and create a few pull requests to help out.

pjmlp 7y ago
Kudos for donating.