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What's the point of owning a driverless car? Apart from luxury/status, it should be far cheaper to rent one as you go, in the driverless cab fashion. Also, I c

by alextp 16y ago

What's the point of owning a driverless car? Apart from luxury/status, it should be far cheaper to rent one as you go, in the driverless cab fashion. Also, I can't help but cringe inside when people act as if the only benefit of living in the city is less commute time. As far as my life goes, I'd trade more commute time to live inside an urban centre with all the facilities at a walkable distance plus all the nice benefits of density.

randallsquared 16y ago
For many people, whatever nice benefits of density there are (and I'm struggling to think of more than one or two... choice of places to go for fun, maybe?) seem offset by the harms of density, which are manifold. However, lower commute time is something nearly everyone wants, even if it's currently only 10 minutes, so it's an easy point to make.
- achompas 16y ago
  For many people, whatever nice benefits of density there are Here are a few that I came up with in 30sec: Varied options on things to do (like you said) Closer proximity to other people in general (more social opportunities) Commuting on foot Better access to more government services Greater selection of goods, food and produce
  - randallsquared 16y ago
    Except for "Greater selection of goods, food and produce", all the ones you add seem like they could be costs rather than benefits, for many people. Closer proximity to other people in general, for example, was one of the harms I was thinking of. But I'm slightly more misanthropic than most Americans, I guess. The one about greater selection isn't actually true, as far as I can tell. You can get pretty much anything shipped to your small town, and while you're less likely to just run across something at the store that you find you like, you'll be paying lower prices for everyday stuff. I live in the DC metro, and every time I travel to visit friends or family (who all live in far less densely populated areas), I'm struck by how much cleaner, cheaper, and open everything is, and how everyone seems friendlier and less suspicious. An advantage neither of us mentioned, but which is pretty large, I think, is that people are less likely to have to move or change careers when changing jobs.
    - achompas 16y ago
      I also live in the DC metro area...maybe we've met at the HN meetups? Will you be there next Wednesday?
      - randallsquared 16y ago
        I went to the last one, but only stayed for a few minutes. I'll look into where and when this next one is.
    - philwelch 16y ago
      Closer proximity to other people in general, for example, was one of the harms I was thinking of. But I'm slightly more misanthropic than most Americans, I guess. Misanthropy often comes down to a matter of quality rather than quantity. I've lived almost my entire life in small towns, and I'm not inclined to speak highly of the people I shared those towns with. For one, while small town folk are probably friendlier and less suspicious towards their own kind, you're also more likely to find various forms of bigotry. It's no coincidence that everyone I know of from my high school who happened to be black, gay, bisexual, or otherwise a minority desperately wanted out and for the most part have moved to denser areas.
    - samtp 16y ago
      I'm from the DC area, but now live in Columbia, SC. Every time I go back I'm reminded of how many different cultures, things to do, types of food, places to have a drink , listen to live music, etc... there are. I love Columbia, but you can't beat living in a major metro area if you like to enjoy new experiences. Now keep in mind that I'm 22. Maybe as you get older, small towns with only a Waffle House and Jimbos Sports Bar (which closes @ 9pm) become more appealing. In most of rural America, the people are incredibly nice, but the poverty, lack of education, jobs, healthcare, and public services is appalling (theres a reason rural Tea Partiers are so angry). With that said, every place is what you make of it.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Energy efficiency Better availability of private services due to economies of scale Psychological sense of community (vs. isolation)
- MrMan 16y ago
  high density is sustainable, probably, whereas low density is probably not. how is that for a benefit? and don't discount how highly "fun" ranks in peoples' lives.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago
    Low density is ultimately unsustainable, but not for a long time. The USA is a big country with mostly open space; it'll be a while before we fill it up.
ph0rque 16y ago
Once cars are driverless, they become investment vehicles (pun unintended). One might buy a car, then lease it out by the mile/km, with certain times during the day that it has return to one's location to pick up (assuming the spot market makes it cheaper to call one's car back rather than just lease another one). So cars become an investment that is on average an order of magnitude less expensive than real estate.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
tgflynn 16y ago
Pretty much the same point of owning anything instead of renting/chartering/sharing - freedom and convenience.
runningdogx 16y ago
Without a human driver, how will a cab company keep fares from trashing cabs? The issue of ensuring payment becomes a serious problem. Do you put credit card entry pads on the outside of the cab to prevent any of that? How long until someone superglues it? With human drivers, there's a social norm to prevent misbehavior, and in extreme cases the driver can stop and insist that the passenger get out. Even if the cab companies put human toll collectors in driverless cabs, although that could work, there would be less respect for cabbies who are not driving. I fear that bad behavior would still flourish.
- alextp 16y ago
  Cameras and computer vision? I think the same rules for public space apply.

by alextp 16y ago

randallsquared 16y ago

For many people, whatever nice benefits of density there are (and I'm struggling to think of more than one or two... choice of places to go for fun, maybe?) seem offset by the harms of density, which are manifold. However, lower commute time is something nearly everyone wants, even if it's currently only 10 minutes, so it's an easy point to make.

achompas 16y ago
For many people, whatever nice benefits of density there are Here are a few that I came up with in 30sec: Varied options on things to do (like you said) Closer proximity to other people in general (more social opportunities) Commuting on foot Better access to more government services Greater selection of goods, food and produce
- randallsquared 16y ago
  Except for "Greater selection of goods, food and produce", all the ones you add seem like they could be costs rather than benefits, for many people. Closer proximity to other people in general, for example, was one of the harms I was thinking of. But I'm slightly more misanthropic than most Americans, I guess. The one about greater selection isn't actually true, as far as I can tell. You can get pretty much anything shipped to your small town, and while you're less likely to just run across something at the store that you find you like, you'll be paying lower prices for everyday stuff. I live in the DC metro, and every time I travel to visit friends or family (who all live in far less densely populated areas), I'm struck by how much cleaner, cheaper, and open everything is, and how everyone seems friendlier and less suspicious. An advantage neither of us mentioned, but which is pretty large, I think, is that people are less likely to have to move or change careers when changing jobs.
  - achompas 16y ago
    I also live in the DC metro area...maybe we've met at the HN meetups? Will you be there next Wednesday?
    - randallsquared 16y ago
      I went to the last one, but only stayed for a few minutes. I'll look into where and when this next one is.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Closer proximity to other people in general, for example, was one of the harms I was thinking of. But I'm slightly more misanthropic than most Americans, I guess. Misanthropy often comes down to a matter of quality rather than quantity. I've lived almost my entire life in small towns, and I'm not inclined to speak highly of the people I shared those towns with. For one, while small town folk are probably friendlier and less suspicious towards their own kind, you're also more likely to find various forms of bigotry. It's no coincidence that everyone I know of from my high school who happened to be black, gay, bisexual, or otherwise a minority desperately wanted out and for the most part have moved to denser areas.
  - samtp 16y ago
    I'm from the DC area, but now live in Columbia, SC. Every time I go back I'm reminded of how many different cultures, things to do, types of food, places to have a drink , listen to live music, etc... there are. I love Columbia, but you can't beat living in a major metro area if you like to enjoy new experiences. Now keep in mind that I'm 22. Maybe as you get older, small towns with only a Waffle House and Jimbos Sports Bar (which closes @ 9pm) become more appealing. In most of rural America, the people are incredibly nice, but the poverty, lack of education, jobs, healthcare, and public services is appalling (theres a reason rural Tea Partiers are so angry). With that said, every place is what you make of it.
- philwelch 16y ago
  Energy efficiency Better availability of private services due to economies of scale Psychological sense of community (vs. isolation)
MrMan 16y ago
high density is sustainable, probably, whereas low density is probably not. how is that for a benefit? and don't discount how highly "fun" ranks in peoples' lives.
- HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago
  Low density is ultimately unsustainable, but not for a long time. The USA is a big country with mostly open space; it'll be a while before we fill it up.

ph0rque 16y ago

Once cars are driverless, they become investment vehicles (pun unintended). One might buy a car, then lease it out by the mile/km, with certain times during the day that it has return to one's location to pick up (assuming the spot market makes it cheaper to call one's car back rather than just lease another one). So cars become an investment that is on average an order of magnitude less expensive than real estate.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

tgflynn 16y ago

Pretty much the same point of owning anything instead of renting/chartering/sharing - freedom and convenience.

runningdogx 16y ago

Without a human driver, how will a cab company keep fares from trashing cabs? The issue of ensuring payment becomes a serious problem. Do you put credit card entry pads on the outside of the cab to prevent any of that? How long until someone superglues it? With human drivers, there's a social norm to prevent misbehavior, and in extreme cases the driver can stop and insist that the passenger get out. Even if the cab companies put human toll collectors in driverless cabs, although that could work, there would be less respect for cabbies who are not driving. I fear that bad behavior would still flourish.

alextp 16y ago
Cameras and computer vision? I think the same rules for public space apply.