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If I owned a 787, would I be likely to have the rights to lend it to security researchers to test the exploits, or would it be prohibited through a contract tha

If I owned a 787, would I be likely to have the rights to lend it to security researchers to test the exploits, or would it be prohibited through a contract that Boeing requires customers to agree to? Is there a reason that an individual would own a 787 for personal use— eg - is it a plane that people change the interior layout for use as a private jet, or are these planes all tied up in commercial use? If I owned one, I would lend it to the researcher as I would want to know the flaws and risks more clearly.

EvanAnderson 7y ago
I'd love to see the software licensing agreement that comes w/ an airliner. I can only imagine it contains the same kind of anti-reverse-engineering clauses that accompany virtually all commercial software.
ken 7y ago
Drake owns a 767 [1], and the founders of Google own one [2]. A couple members of the Saudi Arabian royal family are reported to own 777s [3]. It's not inconceivable that an individual could own a 787, though I can't find any reference to one yet. I think, though, that the sort of person who owns one doesn't tend to want to tinker with it. You just hire someone to fly it, and know that it's always available. The difference between owning and renting, at that level, is mostly financials. Besides, even if you own the aircraft, it's likely you don't own the engines [4], and they're kind of an important component of the overall system. Likewise, I don't know anyone who owns a car who has loaned it to a researcher to analyze it for design flaws. A couple people have done it [5], but for the vast majority of owners, you just use it normally, and if something breaks, you deal with the problem then. Airplanes are loaded with redundancies for critical systems so a lot of things have to go wrong for it to crash. [1]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-air-drake-rapper-unveils-new-massive-767-plane-which-could-cost-more-than-187-million/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-air-drake-rapper-unveils... [2]: https://searchengineland.com/your-guide-to-the-google-jet-12161 https://searchengineland.com/your-guide-to-the-google-jet-12... [3]: https://www.private-jet-fan.com/private-jet-owners-register.html https://www.private-jet-fan.com/private-jet-owners-register.... [4]: https://www.quora.com/Do-some-airlines-not-own-the-engines-on-their-aircraft https://www.quora.com/Do-some-airlines-not-own-the-engines-o... [5]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/22/car-hacking-just-got-real-hackers-disable-suv-on-busy-highway/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/2...
- FDSGSG 7y ago
  >Likewise, I don't know anyone who owns a car who has loaned it to a researcher to analyze it for design flaws Oh, tons of people! There's a whole industry around hacking cars, most of those people aren't the kind of researchers that do con talks though.
  - userbinator 7y ago
    To be precise, in the culture itself it's usually called "modding" or "tuning"; but the newer parts of it, especially around modifying ECUs, does involve work closer to traditional computer hacking. (I'm an automotive enthusiast myself, although I'm more into the "old school" non-computer-controlled stuff. Mostly because it's simpler and inherently resistant to remote hackers.)
FDSGSG 7y ago
A 787 will be harder to come by, but if someone here wants to buy a cheap 737 with an interesting backstory, here's one https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/20348731/1982-boeing-737-200-advanced https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/203487... Previous owner was this guy https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2018/10/17/504768.htm https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2018/10/1... https://uk.flightaware.com/resources/registration/N912NB https://uk.flightaware.com/resources/registration/N912NB I can't help but wonder what he planned to do with the plane, any insurance fraud scheme involving a passenger jet would probably invite interesting consequences.
alltakendamned 7y ago
It would require recertifications
- userbinator 7y ago
  Only if you want to be able to fly it. I suspect the FAA won't care if you bought a plane and chose to turn it into a house, take it apart and post videos on YouTube, or whatever else doesn't involve it flying.
jsjohnst 7y ago
> Is there a reason that an individual would own a 787 for personal use— eg - is it a plane that people change the interior layout for use as a private jet, or are these planes all tied up in commercial use? There’s the BBJ (Boeing Business Jet) edition of both the 787-8 and 787-9. There’s over a dozen of them that’s been built and delivered. Links: https://www.boeing.com/commercial/bbj https://www.boeing.com/commercial/bbj https://corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/boeing-bbj787-buyers-and-investors-guide-787/ https://corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/boeing-bbj787-buye... https://www.geekwire.com/2017/deer-jet-vvip-787-dreamliner/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/deer-jet-vvip-787-dreamliner/

EvanAnderson 7y ago

I'd love to see the software licensing agreement that comes w/ an airliner. I can only imagine it contains the same kind of anti-reverse-engineering clauses that accompany virtually all commercial software.

ken 7y ago

Drake owns a 767 [1], and the founders of Google own one [2]. A couple members of the Saudi Arabian royal family are reported to own 777s [3]. It's not inconceivable that an individual could own a 787, though I can't find any reference to one yet. I think, though, that the sort of person who owns one doesn't tend to want to tinker with it. You just hire someone to fly it, and know that it's always available. The difference between owning and renting, at that level, is mostly financials. Besides, even if you own the aircraft, it's likely you don't own the engines [4], and they're kind of an important component of the overall system. Likewise, I don't know anyone who owns a car who has loaned it to a researcher to analyze it for design flaws. A couple people have done it [5], but for the vast majority of owners, you just use it normally, and if something breaks, you deal with the problem then. Airplanes are loaded with redundancies for critical systems so a lot of things have to go wrong for it to crash. [1]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-air-drake-rapper-unveils-new-massive-767-plane-which-could-cost-more-than-187-million/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-air-drake-rapper-unveils... [2]: https://searchengineland.com/your-guide-to-the-google-jet-12161 https://searchengineland.com/your-guide-to-the-google-jet-12... [3]: https://www.private-jet-fan.com/private-jet-owners-register.html https://www.private-jet-fan.com/private-jet-owners-register.... [4]: https://www.quora.com/Do-some-airlines-not-own-the-engines-on-their-aircraft https://www.quora.com/Do-some-airlines-not-own-the-engines-o... [5]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/22/car-hacking-just-got-real-hackers-disable-suv-on-busy-highway/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/2...

FDSGSG 7y ago
>Likewise, I don't know anyone who owns a car who has loaned it to a researcher to analyze it for design flaws Oh, tons of people! There's a whole industry around hacking cars, most of those people aren't the kind of researchers that do con talks though.
- userbinator 7y ago
  To be precise, in the culture itself it's usually called "modding" or "tuning"; but the newer parts of it, especially around modifying ECUs, does involve work closer to traditional computer hacking. (I'm an automotive enthusiast myself, although I'm more into the "old school" non-computer-controlled stuff. Mostly because it's simpler and inherently resistant to remote hackers.)

FDSGSG 7y ago

A 787 will be harder to come by, but if someone here wants to buy a cheap 737 with an interesting backstory, here's one https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/20348731/1982-boeing-737-200-advanced https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/203487... Previous owner was this guy https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2018/10/17/504768.htm https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2018/10/1... https://uk.flightaware.com/resources/registration/N912NB https://uk.flightaware.com/resources/registration/N912NB I can't help but wonder what he planned to do with the plane, any insurance fraud scheme involving a passenger jet would probably invite interesting consequences.

alltakendamned 7y ago

It would require recertifications

userbinator 7y ago
Only if you want to be able to fly it. I suspect the FAA won't care if you bought a plane and chose to turn it into a house, take it apart and post videos on YouTube, or whatever else doesn't involve it flying.

jsjohnst 7y ago

> Is there a reason that an individual would own a 787 for personal use— eg - is it a plane that people change the interior layout for use as a private jet, or are these planes all tied up in commercial use? There’s the BBJ (Boeing Business Jet) edition of both the 787-8 and 787-9. There’s over a dozen of them that’s been built and delivered. Links: https://www.boeing.com/commercial/bbj https://www.boeing.com/commercial/bbj https://corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/boeing-bbj787-buyers-and-investors-guide-787/ https://corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/boeing-bbj787-buye... https://www.geekwire.com/2017/deer-jet-vvip-787-dreamliner/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/deer-jet-vvip-787-dreamliner/