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Who thought that having any communication path from the passenger entertainment system to flight control was a good idea?
by kps 7y ago
Who thought that having any communication path from the passenger entertainment system to flight control was a good idea?
- tjr 7y agoConnecting entertainment systems to flight control sounds very wrong. Connecting entertainment systems to flight management would be common; it should be one-way communication (entertainment can only read FMS data, not send any), for the purpose of driving the moving map displays for passengers.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago> it should be one-way communication (entertainment can only read FMS data, not send any), for the purpose of driving the moving map displays for passengers. Would you agree that this logical boundary should be physically enforced? Such as an opto-isolator?
- amluto 7y agoNo fancy circuitry is needed. Just use one fiber. I suspect that 100BASE-T can pull this off with one pair and some hackery. RS232 should work work only one direction connected.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- debatem1 7y agoUsed to be done with a literal diode.
- kps 7y agoWell, an optoisolator is a literal diode plus a literal transistor. I'm okay with that much hi tech.
- basilgohar 7y agoThe funny thing is that LEDs (granted, not all types of diodes) can be used to read data as well as transmit it. Videos of such interfaces can be found on YouTube. So, they are not as one-way as some folks may think. https://youtu.be/aLP-OF4nesY https://youtu.be/aLP-OF4nesY
- temac 7y agoWell it can not only be a LED that is supposed to be one-way, but the whole circuitry driving it. Likewise for the receptor. With some appropriate review of the physical design, you can have a reasonable expectation that the comm will be limited to one-way, with no way for arbitrary SW to modify the direction.
- debatem1 7y agoUsually wasn't an LED. Just a normal diode.
- henryfjordan 7y ago> Boeing maintains that other security barriers in the 787's network architecture would make that progression impossible. They probably do something to that effect
- toomuchtodo 7y agoThe longer I'm alive the more firmly I commit to never assume anything. I have seen things. Terrible things.
- p_l 7y agoConnectivity between zones is something FAA actually caught in 787 when it was still being built and forced a redesign.
- snickerbockers 7y ago"security barrier" is a vague, meaningless phrase that they don't define. There shouldn't be any connection at all between flight systems and the in-flight entertainment.
- tjr 7y agoYes.
- mjevans 7y agoThere should actually be three distinct "air-gaped" networks (or at least classifications of network). Secure: The network that connects and controls the airplane. Absolutely only essential things allowed on, and if possible isolated using mathematically proven secure vlan/isolation techniques. "Employee": pilots, crew, etc. This is more just a distinct network for corporate operations security. "Customer": Still try to keep this one secure so that virus and just don't spread, but this is the 'DMZ' area. Communication from the secure network should be outbound only, and might best be done over a fixed rate serial data connection of some sort. The modern version might be to configure a point to point network link on a CDMA based system and just disconnect the secure side's RX path entirely. Then you just export the data blind via UDP with like 10X redundancy.
- stefan_ 7y agoMost Boeing planes (though not the 787 discussed here) don't use fly-by-wire, so you could argue that the most essential control plane is perfectly isolated by virtue of not having any sort of network at all, just hydraulics into the cabin.
- blunte 7y agoBut wasn't the 737-max issue that a software system was forcing an elevator change to pitch the nose down? That sounds pretty fly-by-wire (even if hydraulics are involved).
- p_l 7y agoYou could say that the problem was lack of fly-by-wire - if 737-MAX had FBW, the necessary corrections would be bundled as part of flight envelope protection, and that tends to work pretty well and the required checks on FBW systems would catch stuff like "only one AoA sensor used". Instead we got MCAS which was messing with autotrim signals and escaped scrutiny.
- yc-kraln 7y agoThis sounds like a good idea, until you realize that the head unit is typically the thing in the car with the most computing power (think AI workloads as well as a GPU and multiple ARM cores) and the thing in the car with the network connection. A trivial use case which requires write access to the CAN bus is the navigation system informing cruise control of an upcoming hill. Equally trivial would be the seat position memory or profiles being applied through the main touchscreen. (I work for a company that is developing infotainment systmes)
- usrusr 7y agoThe moving map could easily be fed from a separated consumer grade GPS. Same for all other metrics that the median passenger would care about (height, speed over ground), except for the ever-impressive outside temperature.
- tjr 7y agoOutside temperature is pretty impressive indeed. The map also shows projected flight plan and ETA, which would not come purely from GPS.
- rootusrootus 7y agoMost/all international flights I've been on are really terrible at providing an accurate flight plan or ETA to the passengers via the entertainment system. I would not be surprised if it is already a manual update done when convenient by a member of the flight crew.
- tjr 7y agoCould be! I can safely say that not all such entertainment systems work that way, but I reckon it's possible that some do.
- dx034 7y agoThey tend to use what's programmed in the FMS. Pilots will have the cleared route in there, even if they already know that they'll probably get several short cuts along the way.
- goodcanadian 7y agoI have never seen one that showed a flight plan. They only had a straight-line (well, a great circle route) to the destination. ETA was pretty clearly straight-line distance divided by (average?) speed.
- p_l 7y agoData diodes are things that exist
- neom 7y agoArticle feels like it's focused on breaching the critical systems rather than just trying to kernel panic/overflow/etc them. My concern would be that if you could mess with the ODN such that it could crash or disrupt the data flow of either the other two systems I suppose you might brick the plane (because they refer to a "bridge")? Who know though, maybe there are redundant systems that can handle multiple critical failures, article is so light on details.
- tlb 7y agoYou want communications from the flight controls to the maintenance system. And you want communications from the entertainment system to the maintenance system, so technicians have a single list of everything that needs fixing. It's hard to implement strict one-way communications -- usually you at least need some kind of ACK for reliable transmission. Put all those together with a vulnerability in the middle, and you have an attack.
- SilasX 7y agoOr to driving control! But, engineers keep making this mistake. Hackers were able to take over Jeeps via the entertainment system: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33650491 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33650491 HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9942647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9942647
- jjtheblunt 7y agoTake over as in turn off, not steer, right?
- SilasX 7y agoThe article says “control” but doesn’t have a lot of specifics. In any case, for bad dudes that are pursuing you when people aren’t around, being able to shut down your car is just as bad as being able to control it.
- blunte 7y agoConsidering that cars are becoming more drive-by-wire, it's only a matter of time before a hacker will be able to actually steer a car or activate (or prevent activation of!) the brakes.
- userbinator 7y agoit's only a matter of time before a hacker will be able to actually steer a car or activate (or prevent activation of!) the brakes. A Tesla is the perfect example. The fact that it has self-driving---I mean, "assisted cruise control"---naturally means a computer can take over the controls entirely.
- blunte 7y agoI forget which car it was, but I watched a car review video recently where the presenter fussed about taking the (otherwise great) car to a track. Some of the assists couldn't be disabled, so going around the track he would occasionally have to fight the steering wheel when it would try to turn him a certain way to stay within a "lane".
- gumby 7y agoWhen you're trying to cut the BOM and weight, sharing a network can seem like a good idea. Also industries have cultures, and dunning-kruger often applies outside their core domains. For example: I did some work with Mercedes (no insult to them -- I've happily owned several of their cars). They were "real" engineers; the "schnook" of the door when it shut. The brake-by-wire folks modeled everything in Matlab, developed multiple implementations, But the entertainment system? It's not "real" engineering, so is typically subbed out to a canonical or cheapest bidder based on a powerpoint bullet list. The result: really really safe vehicle, but the user's actual experience (outside the driving) is not encouraging. Same issue with a BMW I had: ECU always kept the pollution within spec; the car always started instantly when I turned the key no matter the temperature or environment, but the seats and windows would move randomly. And we all suffer from this: when I worked on power plants I was (and remain) horrified by the shitshow that is SCADA and the HMI infrastructure many of the other "absurd" things I saw, well, some patient people would show me what an idiot I was and that there were very good reasons for doing things that looked to an outsider like headstands.
- yc-kraln 7y agoSome of us are working to change that... :)
- alltakendamned 7y agoThere’s no path, the guy is making invalid assumptions
- smileysteve 7y agoMy thoughts when I realized I had a usb c phone and they had just implemented usb b; or when a device OR a whole row went out. An alcatel tablet and a mount is cheap; these are easily replaceable, etc. Also, makes upgrades to new processors and better displays easier. Honestly, with an OLED screen, if there was a good mount on the back of the headrest, I'd rather watch movies on my screen.