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Webdevs tend to suffer from an inferiority complex, that they are not considered “real” developers by the rest of the community. So they have responded by makin

Webdevs tend to suffer from an inferiority complex, that they are not considered “real” developers by the rest of the community. So they have responded by making the simple things they do monstrously complicated to try to prove something to the C++ guys, who simply don’t care, until they try to use the dumpster fire that is any modern website, that is. Then it has the opposite of the intended effect! Someone else mentioned SPAs. I 100% guarantee that no user in the world ever wished for their “back” button not to work as they expected. Calling themselves “full stack engineers” is another symptom of this.

jjbiotech 7y ago
Mangling back button functionality isn't inherent of SPAs.
- nfgu 7y ago
  Funny thing: in the last couple years I've seen way more back buttons broken because of backend idiossincrasias than anything else. It is super common to see "Don't use your back button" messages after placing orders on e-commerce websites. On the other hand, most frontend developers writing SPAs just use react-router or something like that (instead of reinventing the wheel) and it just works.
- ehutch79 7y ago
  It's not.... Yet there was a post about how specifically to do that on dev.to because their users couldn't tell their modal was a modal, and the solution they came up with was to hijack the back button.
renke1 7y ago
Who is considered a "real" developer these days?
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  Developers who don’t care if anyone thinks they’re real developers, I guess!
  - renke1 7y ago
    For what it's worth, I can confirm that a lot of backend developers look down to frontend developers, but if you dig a little deeper you often (not always) see that frontend development is simply intimidating to them and they rather stick to what they know. At least in my country/region this leads to a lack of good frontend developers; good developers being those that apply well-known and established (backend) practices to the frontend.
    - PunchTornado 7y ago
      really? for some years I haven't noticed any difference between frontend and backend. that is because both frontend and backend are in js probably...
      - renke1 7y ago
        Most "enterprise" application backends are still written in Java (and probably C#) combined with a frontend based on Angular, sometimes Reacts or older technologies. I am not aware of any Node-based backend at any of our customers (medium/large German companies), except maybe for some smaller parts of the backend (microservices architecure etc.) Ah, also, not sure if you were joking, but I don't think using JavaScript (TypeScript, that is) in both frontend and backend is a bad idea. Having a shared (domain) model can be a real boon. Admittedly, JavaScript lacks a few things that is offered by Java and the like that makes not yet fit for larger applications though (say DI, modularization and so on).
    - my_usernam3 7y ago
      > good developers being those that apply well-known and established (backend) practices to the frontend 100% agree with this. From my experience good front end developers are much harder to come by in silicon valley. We use a general coding interview process, and really struggle finding experienced front end developers because its a hard position. When I have to touch javascript, I break everything, beg for help, then run back into my enterprise java code. This elitist backend attitude to me seems to stem from insecurities of us nerds. I personally feel inferior to front end developers, the ones I know are freaking magicians.
- thfuran 7y ago
  Only me.
- relativeadv 7y ago
  The person who is writing their own game engine and doing everything from the ground up. They haven't shipped anything yet. They're five years into this with a few more to go.
  - wolco 7y ago
    With kickstarter campaigns and medium blog insights.
- Stoids 7y ago
  Jonathan Blow and no one else clearly.
blhack 7y ago
I think this is it more than anything. People wanted to make the web complicated because it made them feel cooler developing it. Some SPAs are cool. Easyeda.com is pretty cool. But also: storing information about a page in the URL is pretty cool too. It makes it possible to link to the page, for instance!
- duderific 7y ago
  > I think this is it more than anything. People wanted to make the web complicated because it made them feel cooler developing it. That is patently false. What happened is product managers wanted their websites to feel cooler to their customers, and work more like native apps. Developers then respond to the requests from the product managers. For example, charts that refresh data without a page reload when you click a button. The requirements get more and more complex, and the web was never meant to be an application platform. So you end up with what we have today.
- robertoandred 7y ago
  SPAs and useful URLs are in no way mutually exclusive. I think people who don’t understand the web talk it down to make themselves feel superior.
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Well, I guess it's like Java : you can make a responsive Java GUI, but I only know a few examples...
- buzzerbetrayed 7y ago
  This comment (and so many others on this thread) demonstrates such a complete lack of understanding of web development and SPAs. Knowing as little as you do about SPAs, why do you think you would be able to understand all the intricacies of the problems they solve. Don't claim that people > make the web complicated because it made them feel cooler developing it just because you don't understand the issues. It would be like me claiming that pro golfers wear golf shoes "just to look cool", when in reality, golf shoes probably offer some advantage that I'm just not aware of.
fma 7y ago
Backend dev here. I tried to create a simple Angular app. I got into some kind of dependency hell on something simple. Going from Angular 7 to 8 broke some junk? Then trying to get Angular Bootstrap to work was hellish as well, especially when some kind of polyfills junk screwed up for IE. Ended up just linking to it directly to the jquery and bootstrap CDN... It's been a long time since I did any kind of major front end work. I think it will stay that way. I don't do enough work with it long enough to really "get it" and retain it.
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  good, just leave the complex angular stuff for the frontend dev, the real engineers.
- vcanales 7y ago
  Well, choosing the right tool for the job is part of being any kind of developer. If you could solve the problem with no framework/lib/state manager, why go that way? The fact that those tools exist doesn't mean you _have_ to use them.
  - icholy 7y ago
    The problem is that there are 100 different tools and they're all hot garbage.
- djstein 7y ago
  sorry you felt that way.unfortunately you dealt with the shit-show that is Angular + TypeScript, which is not beginner friendly AT ALL. I would ask you try using create-react-app, https://facebook.github.io/create-react-app/ https://facebook.github.io/create-react-app/, and drop jQuery. JS is really awesome now and everything that was "in" jQuery can be achieved through standard library.
emsy 7y ago
Also, most websites are hardly applications.
_bxg1 7y ago
> to prove something to the C++ guys, who simply don’t care Pahahahahahaha. There is no group in our industry with a bigger chip on their collective shoulder than "C++ guys".
Accacin 7y ago
Really? No C++/C/Python developers ever over-engineer anything? I mean, you only need check out all the vulnerabilities in said C++ software for verification of that fact :) I think what you're trying to say is that you don't consider 'webdevs' to be "real" developers.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  I consider people getting real work done, without caring what anyone else thinks of their chosen tech, even in Excel VBA to be just as “real” as anyone.
  - Accacin 7y ago
    To be honest, even if you appear a little 'elitist', I agree with your basic premise in that it's overly complicated for little reason and I do hope that one day we come to our collective senses. I however disagree with the fact that I'm not a developer, and although I do it professionally I have little interest in the web outside of work.
commandlinefan 7y ago
> they are not considered “real” developers by the rest of the community Well, a lot of them aren’t - until recently, a lot of front-end developers were actually graphic artists who were more skilled in photoshop than software development (not to knock that skill, it’s a useful one!). It doesn’t help that 23-year-old MBA “unicorn startup” founders have bought into this pipe dream model of software development where a couple of eggheads in the unlit server room develop algorithms that the $10/hour mcweb-developers cut-and-paste into beautiful templates.
ng12 7y ago
> Someone else mentioned SPAs. I 100% guarantee that no user in the world ever wished for their “back” button not to work as they expected. This opinion invalidates the rest of your post. If you lack a fundamental understanding what people are building obviously it seems overcomplicated.
- asark 7y ago
  > If you lack a fundamental understanding what people are building obviously it seems overcomplicated. Hi. I have a fundamental understanding of what people are building. Most of it's overcomplicated and the "web app or not?" decision's very often made due to hype, résumé padding, or making a project look more impressive to other internal folks. Some of it's justifiable as a "webapp" is truly a decent choice but still usually performs worse than is reasonable, indicating overcomplication under the hood—look at various Google "webapp"s performance dropping steadily over the years as features remain similar or drop off, and that's not even comparing them to older non-webapp incarnations which are universally much snappier (though usually missing some features, to be fair).
  - ng12 7y ago
    You think an _entire industry_ has been built up around a desire to pad resumes? I don't even know how to respond to that.
    - asark 7y ago
      No, web development overall hasn't. Web apps specifically are largely fad-chasing vanity (manager, organizational level) or that, yeah. Which is cool because there's all kinds of dumb money flying around for them now—that part's been amazing. But it's not serving users well. Peacock feathers.
      - ng12 7y ago
        So a thing nobody wants or needs became extremely commonplace because JS devs (and only JS devs, I guess the Java guys have yet to discover this) realized they could invent some new frameworks and managers would gladly pay six-figures a head for them to play around with it?
root_axis 7y ago
Masterfully condescending. I also appreciate the dig at JS via C++, which is perhaps the most complex programming language still widely used in the industry.
crispinb 7y ago
Well I'm not primarily a web developer, but I've worked alongside many. This neither describes any of them, nor would it be tolerated (or even possible to pull off) in any workpace I've seen. Self-puffery is admittedly endemic to contemporary tech/con-preneurism, but this is a quite ludicrous 'explanation' of a complex reality.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lghh 7y ago
> So they have responded by making the simple things they do monstrously complicated This is funny because C++ used to be considered a shining example of this. Software is a flat circle.
Jach 7y ago
I might have agreed the inferiority complex existed in the early 2000s, but I don't see it anymore. Rather I think the negative thoughts go the other way, maybe not inferiority from non-webdevs, but jealousy. You can find n00bs who graduated a coding bootcamp and are now making a significantly larger amount of money doing webdev stuff than a bunch of middle aged guys working on legacy native applications who studied the arcane C++ arts and had to get a BS degree to even get an interview. I'm playing contrarian here a bit, so excuse the unqualified language. It seems these days anyone who isn't a webdev in some capacity* is probably a dinosaur, inflexible, less well-paid, lacks understanding of complex distributed systems, and in any case is irrelevant in the modern conversations around development. Might makes right, after all, there are vastly more webdevs than non-webdevs and the most valuable software companies make their money from distributed systems interfaced with via web browsers... The notable exception is probably the group of native mobile application developers, but that's only become more and more webdev-like since both the iPhone and Android took over, rather than the reverse. * Even being back-end only for a back-end whose only front-end is web-based. Yeah I am conflating webdev beyond the post's qualified "front-end developer". But the back-end webdev guys get up to the same overly complicated architecture-astronaut crap we like to complain about the front-end webdev guys getting up to. Don't let me go off on J2EE/JavaEE/Spring.
- temac 7y ago
  I'm not sure you understand the amount of embedded software that runs the world -- or at least think about it appropriately. And the amount of system and infra software that is needed to even let the web exist. An "application" is not just a cute GUI that a consumer or an office worker can interact with. Nor is the interface the most complicated parts in some systems. I found your projection and generalization as ridiculous as if you said: even the EE needs to master the web technology, and they are not very valuable if they don't. Hey, they are web devs of various levels. It is ok to be one, especially a good one. It is also ok to be, I don't know, a compiler expert, a kernel hacker, a baseband FW engineer? The thing is: you often forget about what works pretty much correctly and silently, even when you use it all-day long... :P
  - 7y ago
Raphmedia 7y ago
> Webdevs tend to suffer from an inferiority complex Well, that sure is an arrogant way to present stereotypes as fact. At first, I read this as satire. You can follow the history of web development and see exactly why the current stack is as it is. It's people building solutions to problems. For example, nobody thought "I should create a front-end build process to impress my peers!". What happened instead is that repetitive tasks were programmed out of existence. The web industry is young, you can trace every single steps of it without much research. To claim something as ridiculous as "responded by making the simple things they do monstrously complicated to try to prove something to the C++ guys" is silly at best. Sure, this may be accurate for some of the junior devs. you worked with in your career. However, this is not representative of the industry as a whole.
- buboard 7y ago
  > It's people building solutions to problems. It most definitely doesn't seem so. People build multiple solutions to nonexistent problems, or problems that are only relevant to google (which classifies them as nonexistent problems for everyone else). Then they push those solutions where they don't fit (e.g. SPAs for blogs)
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  You can follow the history of web development and see exactly why the current stack is as it is I have lived this history of web development. I remember when CGI was new and exciting. Now I see modern sites using literally thousands of times the memory and CPU to struggle to do things that were trivial even back in the 90s on a 486 with 8Mb RAM. A typical document, say a news story might be 2kb-5kb in size. Why does the page need 5Mb of JS to deliver and display it? So I am 100% confident in my assertion that the web as it is today is massively and needlessly over complicated.
  - Santosh83 7y ago
    You're right about the document sizes exploding but I think the real reason is the suits swooped down when they found that mere hyperlinked documents could actually be monetized into profitability. The rest is history. 4.4Mb for those 5Mb per news article is javascript that exists for ads and tracking, which in turn exist for monetizing.
buboard 7y ago
that sounds absurd to be true, even though it is also absurd how monstrous the javascript train has grown. And come on, C++ is not that complicated, i think ppl used assembly when they wanted to be obscurantists

jjbiotech 7y ago

Mangling back button functionality isn't inherent of SPAs.

nfgu 7y ago
Funny thing: in the last couple years I've seen way more back buttons broken because of backend idiossincrasias than anything else. It is super common to see "Don't use your back button" messages after placing orders on e-commerce websites. On the other hand, most frontend developers writing SPAs just use react-router or something like that (instead of reinventing the wheel) and it just works.
ehutch79 7y ago
It's not.... Yet there was a post about how specifically to do that on dev.to because their users couldn't tell their modal was a modal, and the solution they came up with was to hijack the back button.

renke1 7y ago

Who is considered a "real" developer these days?

goatinaboat 7y ago
Developers who don’t care if anyone thinks they’re real developers, I guess!
- renke1 7y ago
  For what it's worth, I can confirm that a lot of backend developers look down to frontend developers, but if you dig a little deeper you often (not always) see that frontend development is simply intimidating to them and they rather stick to what they know. At least in my country/region this leads to a lack of good frontend developers; good developers being those that apply well-known and established (backend) practices to the frontend.
  - PunchTornado 7y ago
    really? for some years I haven't noticed any difference between frontend and backend. that is because both frontend and backend are in js probably...
    - renke1 7y ago
      Most "enterprise" application backends are still written in Java (and probably C#) combined with a frontend based on Angular, sometimes Reacts or older technologies. I am not aware of any Node-based backend at any of our customers (medium/large German companies), except maybe for some smaller parts of the backend (microservices architecure etc.) Ah, also, not sure if you were joking, but I don't think using JavaScript (TypeScript, that is) in both frontend and backend is a bad idea. Having a shared (domain) model can be a real boon. Admittedly, JavaScript lacks a few things that is offered by Java and the like that makes not yet fit for larger applications though (say DI, modularization and so on).
  - my_usernam3 7y ago
    > good developers being those that apply well-known and established (backend) practices to the frontend 100% agree with this. From my experience good front end developers are much harder to come by in silicon valley. We use a general coding interview process, and really struggle finding experienced front end developers because its a hard position. When I have to touch javascript, I break everything, beg for help, then run back into my enterprise java code. This elitist backend attitude to me seems to stem from insecurities of us nerds. I personally feel inferior to front end developers, the ones I know are freaking magicians.
thfuran 7y ago
Only me.
relativeadv 7y ago
The person who is writing their own game engine and doing everything from the ground up. They haven't shipped anything yet. They're five years into this with a few more to go.
- wolco 7y ago
  With kickstarter campaigns and medium blog insights.
Stoids 7y ago
Jonathan Blow and no one else clearly.

blhack 7y ago

I think this is it more than anything. People wanted to make the web complicated because it made them feel cooler developing it. Some SPAs are cool. Easyeda.com is pretty cool. But also: storing information about a page in the URL is pretty cool too. It makes it possible to link to the page, for instance!

duderific 7y ago
> I think this is it more than anything. People wanted to make the web complicated because it made them feel cooler developing it. That is patently false. What happened is product managers wanted their websites to feel cooler to their customers, and work more like native apps. Developers then respond to the requests from the product managers. For example, charts that refresh data without a page reload when you click a button. The requirements get more and more complex, and the web was never meant to be an application platform. So you end up with what we have today.
robertoandred 7y ago
SPAs and useful URLs are in no way mutually exclusive. I think people who don’t understand the web talk it down to make themselves feel superior.
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Well, I guess it's like Java : you can make a responsive Java GUI, but I only know a few examples...
buzzerbetrayed 7y ago
This comment (and so many others on this thread) demonstrates such a complete lack of understanding of web development and SPAs. Knowing as little as you do about SPAs, why do you think you would be able to understand all the intricacies of the problems they solve. Don't claim that people > make the web complicated because it made them feel cooler developing it just because you don't understand the issues. It would be like me claiming that pro golfers wear golf shoes "just to look cool", when in reality, golf shoes probably offer some advantage that I'm just not aware of.

fma 7y ago

Backend dev here. I tried to create a simple Angular app. I got into some kind of dependency hell on something simple. Going from Angular 7 to 8 broke some junk? Then trying to get Angular Bootstrap to work was hellish as well, especially when some kind of polyfills junk screwed up for IE. Ended up just linking to it directly to the jquery and bootstrap CDN... It's been a long time since I did any kind of major front end work. I think it will stay that way. I don't do enough work with it long enough to really "get it" and retain it.

PunchTornado 7y ago
good, just leave the complex angular stuff for the frontend dev, the real engineers.
vcanales 7y ago
Well, choosing the right tool for the job is part of being any kind of developer. If you could solve the problem with no framework/lib/state manager, why go that way? The fact that those tools exist doesn't mean you _have_ to use them.
- icholy 7y ago
  The problem is that there are 100 different tools and they're all hot garbage.
djstein 7y ago
sorry you felt that way.unfortunately you dealt with the shit-show that is Angular + TypeScript, which is not beginner friendly AT ALL. I would ask you try using create-react-app, https://facebook.github.io/create-react-app/ https://facebook.github.io/create-react-app/, and drop jQuery. JS is really awesome now and everything that was "in" jQuery can be achieved through standard library.

emsy 7y ago

Also, most websites are hardly applications.

_bxg1 7y ago

> to prove something to the C++ guys, who simply don’t care Pahahahahahaha. There is no group in our industry with a bigger chip on their collective shoulder than "C++ guys".

Accacin 7y ago

Really? No C++/C/Python developers ever over-engineer anything? I mean, you only need check out all the vulnerabilities in said C++ software for verification of that fact :) I think what you're trying to say is that you don't consider 'webdevs' to be "real" developers.

goatinaboat 7y ago
I consider people getting real work done, without caring what anyone else thinks of their chosen tech, even in Excel VBA to be just as “real” as anyone.
- Accacin 7y ago
  To be honest, even if you appear a little 'elitist', I agree with your basic premise in that it's overly complicated for little reason and I do hope that one day we come to our collective senses. I however disagree with the fact that I'm not a developer, and although I do it professionally I have little interest in the web outside of work.

commandlinefan 7y ago

> they are not considered “real” developers by the rest of the community Well, a lot of them aren’t - until recently, a lot of front-end developers were actually graphic artists who were more skilled in photoshop than software development (not to knock that skill, it’s a useful one!). It doesn’t help that 23-year-old MBA “unicorn startup” founders have bought into this pipe dream model of software development where a couple of eggheads in the unlit server room develop algorithms that the $10/hour mcweb-developers cut-and-paste into beautiful templates.

ng12 7y ago

> Someone else mentioned SPAs. I 100% guarantee that no user in the world ever wished for their “back” button not to work as they expected. This opinion invalidates the rest of your post. If you lack a fundamental understanding what people are building obviously it seems overcomplicated.

asark 7y ago
> If you lack a fundamental understanding what people are building obviously it seems overcomplicated. Hi. I have a fundamental understanding of what people are building. Most of it's overcomplicated and the "web app or not?" decision's very often made due to hype, résumé padding, or making a project look more impressive to other internal folks. Some of it's justifiable as a "webapp" is truly a decent choice but still usually performs worse than is reasonable, indicating overcomplication under the hood—look at various Google "webapp"s performance dropping steadily over the years as features remain similar or drop off, and that's not even comparing them to older non-webapp incarnations which are universally much snappier (though usually missing some features, to be fair).
- ng12 7y ago
  You think an _entire industry_ has been built up around a desire to pad resumes? I don't even know how to respond to that.
  - asark 7y ago
    No, web development overall hasn't. Web apps specifically are largely fad-chasing vanity (manager, organizational level) or that, yeah. Which is cool because there's all kinds of dumb money flying around for them now—that part's been amazing. But it's not serving users well. Peacock feathers.
    - ng12 7y ago
      So a thing nobody wants or needs became extremely commonplace because JS devs (and only JS devs, I guess the Java guys have yet to discover this) realized they could invent some new frameworks and managers would gladly pay six-figures a head for them to play around with it?

root_axis 7y ago

Masterfully condescending. I also appreciate the dig at JS via C++, which is perhaps the most complex programming language still widely used in the industry.

crispinb 7y ago

Well I'm not primarily a web developer, but I've worked alongside many. This neither describes any of them, nor would it be tolerated (or even possible to pull off) in any workpace I've seen. Self-puffery is admittedly endemic to contemporary tech/con-preneurism, but this is a quite ludicrous 'explanation' of a complex reality.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

lghh 7y ago

> So they have responded by making the simple things they do monstrously complicated This is funny because C++ used to be considered a shining example of this. Software is a flat circle.

Jach 7y ago

I might have agreed the inferiority complex existed in the early 2000s, but I don't see it anymore. Rather I think the negative thoughts go the other way, maybe not inferiority from non-webdevs, but jealousy. You can find n00bs who graduated a coding bootcamp and are now making a significantly larger amount of money doing webdev stuff than a bunch of middle aged guys working on legacy native applications who studied the arcane C++ arts and had to get a BS degree to even get an interview. I'm playing contrarian here a bit, so excuse the unqualified language. It seems these days anyone who isn't a webdev in some capacity* is probably a dinosaur, inflexible, less well-paid, lacks understanding of complex distributed systems, and in any case is irrelevant in the modern conversations around development. Might makes right, after all, there are vastly more webdevs than non-webdevs and the most valuable software companies make their money from distributed systems interfaced with via web browsers... The notable exception is probably the group of native mobile application developers, but that's only become more and more webdev-like since both the iPhone and Android took over, rather than the reverse. * Even being back-end only for a back-end whose only front-end is web-based. Yeah I am conflating webdev beyond the post's qualified "front-end developer". But the back-end webdev guys get up to the same overly complicated architecture-astronaut crap we like to complain about the front-end webdev guys getting up to. Don't let me go off on J2EE/JavaEE/Spring.

temac 7y ago
I'm not sure you understand the amount of embedded software that runs the world -- or at least think about it appropriately. And the amount of system and infra software that is needed to even let the web exist. An "application" is not just a cute GUI that a consumer or an office worker can interact with. Nor is the interface the most complicated parts in some systems. I found your projection and generalization as ridiculous as if you said: even the EE needs to master the web technology, and they are not very valuable if they don't. Hey, they are web devs of various levels. It is ok to be one, especially a good one. It is also ok to be, I don't know, a compiler expert, a kernel hacker, a baseband FW engineer? The thing is: you often forget about what works pretty much correctly and silently, even when you use it all-day long... :P
- 7y ago

Raphmedia 7y ago

> Webdevs tend to suffer from an inferiority complex Well, that sure is an arrogant way to present stereotypes as fact. At first, I read this as satire. You can follow the history of web development and see exactly why the current stack is as it is. It's people building solutions to problems. For example, nobody thought "I should create a front-end build process to impress my peers!". What happened instead is that repetitive tasks were programmed out of existence. The web industry is young, you can trace every single steps of it without much research. To claim something as ridiculous as "responded by making the simple things they do monstrously complicated to try to prove something to the C++ guys" is silly at best. Sure, this may be accurate for some of the junior devs. you worked with in your career. However, this is not representative of the industry as a whole.

buboard 7y ago
> It's people building solutions to problems. It most definitely doesn't seem so. People build multiple solutions to nonexistent problems, or problems that are only relevant to google (which classifies them as nonexistent problems for everyone else). Then they push those solutions where they don't fit (e.g. SPAs for blogs)
goatinaboat 7y ago
You can follow the history of web development and see exactly why the current stack is as it is I have lived this history of web development. I remember when CGI was new and exciting. Now I see modern sites using literally thousands of times the memory and CPU to struggle to do things that were trivial even back in the 90s on a 486 with 8Mb RAM. A typical document, say a news story might be 2kb-5kb in size. Why does the page need 5Mb of JS to deliver and display it? So I am 100% confident in my assertion that the web as it is today is massively and needlessly over complicated.
- Santosh83 7y ago
  You're right about the document sizes exploding but I think the real reason is the suits swooped down when they found that mere hyperlinked documents could actually be monetized into profitability. The rest is history. 4.4Mb for those 5Mb per news article is javascript that exists for ads and tracking, which in turn exist for monetizing.

buboard 7y ago

that sounds absurd to be true, even though it is also absurd how monstrous the javascript train has grown. And come on, C++ is not that complicated, i think ppl used assembly when they wanted to be obscurantists