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...And what you're forgetting is that thanks to Iron Dome, those rockets kill fewer people than, say, electric scooters in Tel Aviv. And that Gaza is subject to

...And what you're forgetting is that thanks to Iron Dome, those rockets kill fewer people than, say, electric scooters in Tel Aviv. And that Gaza is subject to an economic blockade making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. That's not even mentioning the slow annexation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel is now officially rejecting a two-state solution, and they are obviously rejecting the idea of giving palestinians full citizenship (which would render jewish Israelis the minority). That implies, logically, that Israel is now denying Palestinians the perspective of any sort of democracy. Violence against civilians is wrong. But it isn't unheard of in a struggle for self-determination. It's inexcusably wrong for (some) Palestinians to deny Israel's right to exist within the borders of '68. But the enormous power differential between the parties simply places the burden of taking the first step on Israel's shoulders.

pugio 7y ago
> making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. The blockade certainly makes things difficult, but, like all things, the actual situation is much more complex than that. The people in power in Gaza seem to find it much more expedient for things to remain bad, and all the hate, negative energy, and blame to be directed at Israel, than to put real effort into making things better. Regarding, for example, your mention of electricity, I've had conversations with people who tried to set up a working electric plant within Gaza, and were stymied by a baffling level of neglect, poor workmanship, and inattention to cleanliness or detail on the part of the Gazans. (I'm not making a general statement about Gazans here, just the ones involved with the project.) It seems sometimes as though the people there feel that if they were to give up some of the hate, anger, and outrage towards Israel (justified or not), and actually devote their full energies to improving what they have, then they'd be selling out their cause. A prospering Gaza is a less effective critique of Israeli policy, and a less useful weapon on the public stage in the battle to reclaim ancestral lands.
- tomcooks 7y ago
  > negative energy Israel burns down centuries -old olive trees, closes access to water, and promotes settlements in occupied territories "Negative energy"
  - avip 7y ago
    - Olives rarely make it to hundreds of years. Surely they don’t in Gaza which has crappy soil for olives. Are you confused with the West Bank? - All water in Gaza are provided by Israel. Are you confused with Hebron or some other place? - There are no settlements in Gaza since the unilateral withdrawal in 2005. Are you confused?
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      Israel controls Gaza and the Westbank in pretty much any sense that matters, especially they limit or prohibit trade and they regularly conduct raids of all sorts. That in turn means they are responsible for providing water and almost everything else, and the Palestinians have almost no agency over any of their affairs, which also makes it hard or impossible for them to reign in their militant fractions. And it's hard to expect those in Gaza to not have a problem with what happens in Westbank and the other way around.
      - avip 7y ago
        Does it? If US build that wall and stop trading with Mexico, it’ll suddenly become responsible to supply the needs of the Mexican people? Israel supports Gaza because it’s an overwhelming consensus that leaving 1.8mm people, most of them innocent by any reasonable definition, to starve to death, is not a viable option. And no one thinks Egypt, a disfunctioning state by itself, will take any action.
        bayesian_horse 7y ago
        Completely different situation. Mexico is undeniably a larger country and much more self-sufficient. Neither the Westbank nor Gaza are self-sufficient. Israel does not allow Egypt to help them either, even though Egypt is not dysfunctional at the moment. So Israel is taking active measures to prevent Palestinians from getting help, trading, or even building their own economy (which is tough when you can't produce construction material and Israel doesn't let any in). Israel is also responsible for putting Palestinians into those zones, because that many people wouldn't move voluntarily into an area that can't sustain them. Their situation has been likened to that of a prison, and the comparison is quite apt. In a prison, the wardens are almost completely responsible for anything that happens inside.
avip 7y ago
- Gaza has a restricted fishing zone. - There are to date 4 missiles casualties in 2019, maybe switch the TA scooters example to something else.

pugio 7y ago

> making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. The blockade certainly makes things difficult, but, like all things, the actual situation is much more complex than that. The people in power in Gaza seem to find it much more expedient for things to remain bad, and all the hate, negative energy, and blame to be directed at Israel, than to put real effort into making things better. Regarding, for example, your mention of electricity, I've had conversations with people who tried to set up a working electric plant within Gaza, and were stymied by a baffling level of neglect, poor workmanship, and inattention to cleanliness or detail on the part of the Gazans. (I'm not making a general statement about Gazans here, just the ones involved with the project.) It seems sometimes as though the people there feel that if they were to give up some of the hate, anger, and outrage towards Israel (justified or not), and actually devote their full energies to improving what they have, then they'd be selling out their cause. A prospering Gaza is a less effective critique of Israeli policy, and a less useful weapon on the public stage in the battle to reclaim ancestral lands.

tomcooks 7y ago
> negative energy Israel burns down centuries -old olive trees, closes access to water, and promotes settlements in occupied territories "Negative energy"
- avip 7y ago
  - Olives rarely make it to hundreds of years. Surely they don’t in Gaza which has crappy soil for olives. Are you confused with the West Bank? - All water in Gaza are provided by Israel. Are you confused with Hebron or some other place? - There are no settlements in Gaza since the unilateral withdrawal in 2005. Are you confused?
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    Israel controls Gaza and the Westbank in pretty much any sense that matters, especially they limit or prohibit trade and they regularly conduct raids of all sorts. That in turn means they are responsible for providing water and almost everything else, and the Palestinians have almost no agency over any of their affairs, which also makes it hard or impossible for them to reign in their militant fractions. And it's hard to expect those in Gaza to not have a problem with what happens in Westbank and the other way around.
    - avip 7y ago
      Does it? If US build that wall and stop trading with Mexico, it’ll suddenly become responsible to supply the needs of the Mexican people? Israel supports Gaza because it’s an overwhelming consensus that leaving 1.8mm people, most of them innocent by any reasonable definition, to starve to death, is not a viable option. And no one thinks Egypt, a disfunctioning state by itself, will take any action.
      - bayesian_horse 7y ago
        Completely different situation. Mexico is undeniably a larger country and much more self-sufficient. Neither the Westbank nor Gaza are self-sufficient. Israel does not allow Egypt to help them either, even though Egypt is not dysfunctional at the moment. So Israel is taking active measures to prevent Palestinians from getting help, trading, or even building their own economy (which is tough when you can't produce construction material and Israel doesn't let any in). Israel is also responsible for putting Palestinians into those zones, because that many people wouldn't move voluntarily into an area that can't sustain them. Their situation has been likened to that of a prison, and the comparison is quite apt. In a prison, the wardens are almost completely responsible for anything that happens inside.

avip 7y ago

- Gaza has a restricted fishing zone. - There are to date 4 missiles casualties in 2019, maybe switch the TA scooters example to something else.