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I think what’s quite often forgotten in statements like this is that Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza 15 years ago, and Gazans then had an election in whic

by jraby3 7y ago

I think what’s quite often forgotten in statements like this is that Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza 15 years ago, and Gazans then had an election in which they elected Hamas. Since then, Hamas has launched thousands of rockets into Israel with the express purpose of targeting civilians, while Israel has lost a huge buffer zone (Hamas now reaches major cities like Beersheva with their rockets). Worst part IMO is that there have not been any new elections and that Hamas has started enacting Sharia law in Gaza.

mantap 7y ago
If there have not been any new elections how can you attribute the violence to the Palestinian people, many of whom would have been children 15 years ago. And if the application of sharia law is cause for blockading a country and rendering its inhabitants stateless then we had better start blockading most of the Middle East.
IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
...And what you're forgetting is that thanks to Iron Dome, those rockets kill fewer people than, say, electric scooters in Tel Aviv. And that Gaza is subject to an economic blockade making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. That's not even mentioning the slow annexation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel is now officially rejecting a two-state solution, and they are obviously rejecting the idea of giving palestinians full citizenship (which would render jewish Israelis the minority). That implies, logically, that Israel is now denying Palestinians the perspective of any sort of democracy. Violence against civilians is wrong. But it isn't unheard of in a struggle for self-determination. It's inexcusably wrong for (some) Palestinians to deny Israel's right to exist within the borders of '68. But the enormous power differential between the parties simply places the burden of taking the first step on Israel's shoulders.
- pugio 7y ago
  > making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. The blockade certainly makes things difficult, but, like all things, the actual situation is much more complex than that. The people in power in Gaza seem to find it much more expedient for things to remain bad, and all the hate, negative energy, and blame to be directed at Israel, than to put real effort into making things better. Regarding, for example, your mention of electricity, I've had conversations with people who tried to set up a working electric plant within Gaza, and were stymied by a baffling level of neglect, poor workmanship, and inattention to cleanliness or detail on the part of the Gazans. (I'm not making a general statement about Gazans here, just the ones involved with the project.) It seems sometimes as though the people there feel that if they were to give up some of the hate, anger, and outrage towards Israel (justified or not), and actually devote their full energies to improving what they have, then they'd be selling out their cause. A prospering Gaza is a less effective critique of Israeli policy, and a less useful weapon on the public stage in the battle to reclaim ancestral lands.
  - tomcooks 7y ago
    > negative energy Israel burns down centuries -old olive trees, closes access to water, and promotes settlements in occupied territories "Negative energy"
    - avip 7y ago
      - Olives rarely make it to hundreds of years. Surely they don’t in Gaza which has crappy soil for olives. Are you confused with the West Bank? - All water in Gaza are provided by Israel. Are you confused with Hebron or some other place? - There are no settlements in Gaza since the unilateral withdrawal in 2005. Are you confused?
      - bayesian_horse 7y ago
        Israel controls Gaza and the Westbank in pretty much any sense that matters, especially they limit or prohibit trade and they regularly conduct raids of all sorts. That in turn means they are responsible for providing water and almost everything else, and the Palestinians have almost no agency over any of their affairs, which also makes it hard or impossible for them to reign in their militant fractions. And it's hard to expect those in Gaza to not have a problem with what happens in Westbank and the other way around.
- avip 7y ago
  - Gaza has a restricted fishing zone. - There are to date 4 missiles casualties in 2019, maybe switch the TA scooters example to something else.
htek 7y ago
I would much rather see Israel and Palestine at peace, but what's also forgotten is that Israel created its own monster.[1] Israel's right wing government will do anything it can [2] to undermine Palestine's legitimacy so long as they don't have to confront difficult choices. 1. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c... 2. https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-citizens/ https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-cit...
bayesian_horse 7y ago
My statement explicitly didn't put the blame on either side, though both probably carry a lot. And "Palestinians elected Hamas" is in my opinion a useless oversimplification.

by jraby3 7y ago

mantap 7y ago

If there have not been any new elections how can you attribute the violence to the Palestinian people, many of whom would have been children 15 years ago. And if the application of sharia law is cause for blockading a country and rendering its inhabitants stateless then we had better start blockading most of the Middle East.

IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago

...And what you're forgetting is that thanks to Iron Dome, those rockets kill fewer people than, say, electric scooters in Tel Aviv. And that Gaza is subject to an economic blockade making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. That's not even mentioning the slow annexation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel is now officially rejecting a two-state solution, and they are obviously rejecting the idea of giving palestinians full citizenship (which would render jewish Israelis the minority). That implies, logically, that Israel is now denying Palestinians the perspective of any sort of democracy. Violence against civilians is wrong. But it isn't unheard of in a struggle for self-determination. It's inexcusably wrong for (some) Palestinians to deny Israel's right to exist within the borders of '68. But the enormous power differential between the parties simply places the burden of taking the first step on Israel's shoulders.

pugio 7y ago
> making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. The blockade certainly makes things difficult, but, like all things, the actual situation is much more complex than that. The people in power in Gaza seem to find it much more expedient for things to remain bad, and all the hate, negative energy, and blame to be directed at Israel, than to put real effort into making things better. Regarding, for example, your mention of electricity, I've had conversations with people who tried to set up a working electric plant within Gaza, and were stymied by a baffling level of neglect, poor workmanship, and inattention to cleanliness or detail on the part of the Gazans. (I'm not making a general statement about Gazans here, just the ones involved with the project.) It seems sometimes as though the people there feel that if they were to give up some of the hate, anger, and outrage towards Israel (justified or not), and actually devote their full energies to improving what they have, then they'd be selling out their cause. A prospering Gaza is a less effective critique of Israeli policy, and a less useful weapon on the public stage in the battle to reclaim ancestral lands.
- tomcooks 7y ago
  > negative energy Israel burns down centuries -old olive trees, closes access to water, and promotes settlements in occupied territories "Negative energy"
  - avip 7y ago
    - Olives rarely make it to hundreds of years. Surely they don’t in Gaza which has crappy soil for olives. Are you confused with the West Bank? - All water in Gaza are provided by Israel. Are you confused with Hebron or some other place? - There are no settlements in Gaza since the unilateral withdrawal in 2005. Are you confused?
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      Israel controls Gaza and the Westbank in pretty much any sense that matters, especially they limit or prohibit trade and they regularly conduct raids of all sorts. That in turn means they are responsible for providing water and almost everything else, and the Palestinians have almost no agency over any of their affairs, which also makes it hard or impossible for them to reign in their militant fractions. And it's hard to expect those in Gaza to not have a problem with what happens in Westbank and the other way around.
avip 7y ago
- Gaza has a restricted fishing zone. - There are to date 4 missiles casualties in 2019, maybe switch the TA scooters example to something else.

htek 7y ago

I would much rather see Israel and Palestine at peace, but what's also forgotten is that Israel created its own monster.[1] Israel's right wing government will do anything it can [2] to undermine Palestine's legitimacy so long as they don't have to confront difficult choices. 1. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c... 2. https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-citizens/ https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-cit...

bayesian_horse 7y ago

My statement explicitly didn't put the blame on either side, though both probably carry a lot. And "Palestinians elected Hamas" is in my opinion a useless oversimplification.