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apartheid in particular refers to West Bank (eg East Jerusalem) Palestinians that blue cards (so they can travel freely in Israel but can't own property in Isra

apartheid in particular refers to West Bank (eg East Jerusalem) Palestinians that blue cards (so they can travel freely in Israel but can't own property in Israel, can't move residences in East Jerusalem, suffer road closures and checkpoints, and don't have access to any social services. Re Independence of Gaza and etc. Yes idf pulled out but there's a blockade. So let me ask you what you would do if lived in an open prison? Do you think maybe you would lash out? And about those rockets which are not much larger than bottle rockets: how many Gaza Palestinians are killed for every Israeli during and incursion? During a bombing? Answer 200x times more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict . I'm not saying that the Palestinians are justified but that Israel's response is untenable - if a child strikes an adult it is unacceptable that that child is beaten within an inch of their life. Edit: lol downvotes for facts.

NeverFade 7y ago
The thread is about Gaza, so my comment focused on Gaza. Gaza and the West Bank are currently separate entities. The situation in the West Bank is more complicated, and Israel can be considered to still occupy it. The main reason Israel hasn't pulled out of the West Bank the way it did with Gaza is because of the dire result of the Gaza pullout. The conflict has clearly gotten worse and certainly more bloody since that pullout. You are incorrect about East Jerusalem residents not having access to "any social services". They are Israeli permanent residents and have access to the same services as any resident or citizen of Israel: > As residents, East Jerusalemites without Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city. Residents pay taxes, and following a 1988 Israeli Supreme Court ruling, East Jerusalem residents are guaranteed the right to social security benefits and state health care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. There are other territories which are not part of Israel, such as Ramallah, where people never were residents of Israel. Israel does hold military control over some of these territories, in the same way the US controls parts of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either.
- mlevental 7y ago
  I was mistaken about SS and healthcare. Okay. >They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. You're wrong. They cannot leave East Jerusalem and retain the classification. I'm on my phone so I don't have access to my journal database but here is an infographic that cites btselem and a researcher https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e771176152bcff19c19e7.png?2016 https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e77117615... . And They indeed do suffer from checkpoints - I've seen them myself - because there are towns on the other side of the wall that are technically East Jerusalem. There are East Jerusalem villages cleaved in half by the wall. >The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either. This is a gross oversimplification of eg Hebron where Israeli citizens are by absolutely any measure illegal residents and yet Israel does not evict them, idf protects them, and Palestinians suffer. How do you imagine the US government would handle a us community moving to Kabul and stealing land?
  - NeverFade 7y ago
    > They indeed do suffer from checkpoints - I've seen them myself - because there are towns on the other side of the wall that are technically East Jerusalem. There are East Jerusalem villages cleaved in half by the wall. You are talking about towns and villages that are not part of "East Jerusalem". East Jerusalem is just a part of Jerusalem, which is a city. There are no checkpoints within the city. Of course as always in the case of Israel, there's vicious fallacious propaganda to paint Israel as a villain, claiming that villages that are miles away from Jerusalem should be considered part of it and their residents should also be granted residency.
    - mlevental 7y ago
      >Of course as always in the case of Israel, there's vicious fallacious propaganda to paint Israel as a villain, claiming that villages that are miles away from Jerusalem should be considered part of it and their residents should also be granted residency. irony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_%27Aqab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_%27Aqab >While Kafr 'Aqab was unilaterally annexed by Israel with the rest of East Jerusalem and falls under its full jurisdiction, it is separated from Jerusalem by the Israeli West Bank barrier. more @ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-15-years-of-separation-palestinians-cut-off-from-jerusalem-by-a-wall-1.5888001 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-15-yea... >"Much has been spoken and written about the Shoafat refugee camp (population: 30,000), which suffers from a dearth of infrastructure and from poverty. Kafr Aqab (25,000 inhabitants) and its adjacent neighborhoods are in a similar situation. Officially, they lie within Jerusalem’s municipal jurisdiction, but in practice, they receive woefully inadequate services from the city."

NeverFade 7y ago

The thread is about Gaza, so my comment focused on Gaza. Gaza and the West Bank are currently separate entities. The situation in the West Bank is more complicated, and Israel can be considered to still occupy it. The main reason Israel hasn't pulled out of the West Bank the way it did with Gaza is because of the dire result of the Gaza pullout. The conflict has clearly gotten worse and certainly more bloody since that pullout. You are incorrect about East Jerusalem residents not having access to "any social services". They are Israeli permanent residents and have access to the same services as any resident or citizen of Israel: > As residents, East Jerusalemites without Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city. Residents pay taxes, and following a 1988 Israeli Supreme Court ruling, East Jerusalem residents are guaranteed the right to social security benefits and state health care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. There are other territories which are not part of Israel, such as Ramallah, where people never were residents of Israel. Israel does hold military control over some of these territories, in the same way the US controls parts of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either.

mlevental 7y ago
I was mistaken about SS and healthcare. Okay. >They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. You're wrong. They cannot leave East Jerusalem and retain the classification. I'm on my phone so I don't have access to my journal database but here is an infographic that cites btselem and a researcher https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e771176152bcff19c19e7.png?2016 https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e77117615... . And They indeed do suffer from checkpoints - I've seen them myself - because there are towns on the other side of the wall that are technically East Jerusalem. There are East Jerusalem villages cleaved in half by the wall. >The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either. This is a gross oversimplification of eg Hebron where Israeli citizens are by absolutely any measure illegal residents and yet Israel does not evict them, idf protects them, and Palestinians suffer. How do you imagine the US government would handle a us community moving to Kabul and stealing land?
- NeverFade 7y ago
  > They indeed do suffer from checkpoints - I've seen them myself - because there are towns on the other side of the wall that are technically East Jerusalem. There are East Jerusalem villages cleaved in half by the wall. You are talking about towns and villages that are not part of "East Jerusalem". East Jerusalem is just a part of Jerusalem, which is a city. There are no checkpoints within the city. Of course as always in the case of Israel, there's vicious fallacious propaganda to paint Israel as a villain, claiming that villages that are miles away from Jerusalem should be considered part of it and their residents should also be granted residency.
  - mlevental 7y ago
    >Of course as always in the case of Israel, there's vicious fallacious propaganda to paint Israel as a villain, claiming that villages that are miles away from Jerusalem should be considered part of it and their residents should also be granted residency. irony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_%27Aqab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_%27Aqab >While Kafr 'Aqab was unilaterally annexed by Israel with the rest of East Jerusalem and falls under its full jurisdiction, it is separated from Jerusalem by the Israeli West Bank barrier. more @ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-15-years-of-separation-palestinians-cut-off-from-jerusalem-by-a-wall-1.5888001 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-15-yea... >"Much has been spoken and written about the Shoafat refugee camp (population: 30,000), which suffers from a dearth of infrastructure and from poverty. Kafr Aqab (25,000 inhabitants) and its adjacent neighborhoods are in a similar situation. Officially, they lie within Jerusalem’s municipal jurisdiction, but in practice, they receive woefully inadequate services from the city."