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Israel has relinquished all control of Gaza in 2005, and hasn't been an occupying force there since: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_G

Israel has relinquished all control of Gaza in 2005, and hasn't been an occupying force there since: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz... Gaza residents have been in control of their own fate since at least 2005. Unfortunately they elected Hamas, a terror organization, to be their government. Hamas predictably declared war on Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_... Gaza Palestinians have fired over 30,000 rockets on Israeli civilian population centers since the Israeli occupation of Gaza has ended. Current state of Gaza isn't occupation, and certainly not "apartheid". It's a small, weak entity waging murderous war on a much stronger country. If a small nation fired 30,000 rockets on US civilians, the US would annihilate it. Israel is being merciful in Gaza. It has to, partly, because of anti-semitic propaganda such as you cited. That propaganda is a major reason Gaza residents elected Hamas. Arguments such as "Israel is just a colonial force and should be eliminated" feed Gazans' fantasies of destroying Israel, which is Hamas's explicit agenda. Hamas charter explicitly states that its goal is to kill every Jew in the world, and certainly in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant#Anti-Semitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant#Anti-Semitism This is the organization currently in control of Gaza, elected by the majority of Gaza's residents. It's convenient to ignore these realities and just paint Israel as the villain and Hamas/Gazans as victims, as you have done. Unfortunately, simplistic positions such as yours only support and embolden extremists like Hamas and feed into further violence, continuation and escalation of this conflict.

mlevental 7y ago
apartheid in particular refers to West Bank (eg East Jerusalem) Palestinians that blue cards (so they can travel freely in Israel but can't own property in Israel, can't move residences in East Jerusalem, suffer road closures and checkpoints, and don't have access to any social services. Re Independence of Gaza and etc. Yes idf pulled out but there's a blockade. So let me ask you what you would do if lived in an open prison? Do you think maybe you would lash out? And about those rockets which are not much larger than bottle rockets: how many Gaza Palestinians are killed for every Israeli during and incursion? During a bombing? Answer 200x times more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict . I'm not saying that the Palestinians are justified but that Israel's response is untenable - if a child strikes an adult it is unacceptable that that child is beaten within an inch of their life. Edit: lol downvotes for facts.
- NeverFade 7y ago
  The thread is about Gaza, so my comment focused on Gaza. Gaza and the West Bank are currently separate entities. The situation in the West Bank is more complicated, and Israel can be considered to still occupy it. The main reason Israel hasn't pulled out of the West Bank the way it did with Gaza is because of the dire result of the Gaza pullout. The conflict has clearly gotten worse and certainly more bloody since that pullout. You are incorrect about East Jerusalem residents not having access to "any social services". They are Israeli permanent residents and have access to the same services as any resident or citizen of Israel: > As residents, East Jerusalemites without Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city. Residents pay taxes, and following a 1988 Israeli Supreme Court ruling, East Jerusalem residents are guaranteed the right to social security benefits and state health care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. There are other territories which are not part of Israel, such as Ramallah, where people never were residents of Israel. Israel does hold military control over some of these territories, in the same way the US controls parts of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either.
  - mlevental 7y ago
    I was mistaken about SS and healthcare. Okay. >They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. You're wrong. They cannot leave East Jerusalem and retain the classification. I'm on my phone so I don't have access to my journal database but here is an infographic that cites btselem and a researcher https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e771176152bcff19c19e7.png?2016 https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e77117615... . And They indeed do suffer from checkpoints - I've seen them myself - because there are towns on the other side of the wall that are technically East Jerusalem. There are East Jerusalem villages cleaved in half by the wall. >The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either. This is a gross oversimplification of eg Hebron where Israeli citizens are by absolutely any measure illegal residents and yet Israel does not evict them, idf protects them, and Palestinians suffer. How do you imagine the US government would handle a us community moving to Kabul and stealing land?
boztek 7y ago
> Israel has relinquished all control of Gaza in 2005, and hasn't been an occupying force there since Nope. https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/mde150072009en.pdf https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/mde15007200... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_territories_occupied_by_Israel_in_1967#Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_territories_occupied...
justin66 7y ago
> Gaza residents have been in control of their own fate since at least 2005. I wouldn't want to litigate the Arab-Israeli conflict on a message board but this is just such a fundamentally absurd thing to say that I thought I should respond. They have a "government" but are not citizens of an actual country and they do not have a real economy because they are under blockade. They are not in control of their own fate, except in some existentialist way that invites comparison with prison inmates or something.

mlevental 7y ago

apartheid in particular refers to West Bank (eg East Jerusalem) Palestinians that blue cards (so they can travel freely in Israel but can't own property in Israel, can't move residences in East Jerusalem, suffer road closures and checkpoints, and don't have access to any social services. Re Independence of Gaza and etc. Yes idf pulled out but there's a blockade. So let me ask you what you would do if lived in an open prison? Do you think maybe you would lash out? And about those rockets which are not much larger than bottle rockets: how many Gaza Palestinians are killed for every Israeli during and incursion? During a bombing? Answer 200x times more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict . I'm not saying that the Palestinians are justified but that Israel's response is untenable - if a child strikes an adult it is unacceptable that that child is beaten within an inch of their life. Edit: lol downvotes for facts.

NeverFade 7y ago
The thread is about Gaza, so my comment focused on Gaza. Gaza and the West Bank are currently separate entities. The situation in the West Bank is more complicated, and Israel can be considered to still occupy it. The main reason Israel hasn't pulled out of the West Bank the way it did with Gaza is because of the dire result of the Gaza pullout. The conflict has clearly gotten worse and certainly more bloody since that pullout. You are incorrect about East Jerusalem residents not having access to "any social services". They are Israeli permanent residents and have access to the same services as any resident or citizen of Israel: > As residents, East Jerusalemites without Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city. Residents pay taxes, and following a 1988 Israeli Supreme Court ruling, East Jerusalem residents are guaranteed the right to social security benefits and state health care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. There are other territories which are not part of Israel, such as Ramallah, where people never were residents of Israel. Israel does hold military control over some of these territories, in the same way the US controls parts of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either.
- mlevental 7y ago
  I was mistaken about SS and healthcare. Okay. >They also don't suffer checkpoints etc, and can certainly move residences. You're wrong. They cannot leave East Jerusalem and retain the classification. I'm on my phone so I don't have access to my journal database but here is an infographic that cites btselem and a researcher https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e771176152bcff19c19e7.png?2016 https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/209b704ee29e77117615... . And They indeed do suffer from checkpoints - I've seen them myself - because there are towns on the other side of the wall that are technically East Jerusalem. There are East Jerusalem villages cleaved in half by the wall. >The US doesn't grant US permanent resident or citizen status to Iraqis and Afghanis, either. This is a gross oversimplification of eg Hebron where Israeli citizens are by absolutely any measure illegal residents and yet Israel does not evict them, idf protects them, and Palestinians suffer. How do you imagine the US government would handle a us community moving to Kabul and stealing land?

boztek 7y ago

> Israel has relinquished all control of Gaza in 2005, and hasn't been an occupying force there since Nope. https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/mde150072009en.pdf https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/mde15007200... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_territories_occupied_by_Israel_in_1967#Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_territories_occupied...

justin66 7y ago

> Gaza residents have been in control of their own fate since at least 2005. I wouldn't want to litigate the Arab-Israeli conflict on a message board but this is just such a fundamentally absurd thing to say that I thought I should respond. They have a "government" but are not citizens of an actual country and they do not have a real economy because they are under blockade. They are not in control of their own fate, except in some existentialist way that invites comparison with prison inmates or something.