5 ms·

Europe’s heat wave moves north

60 points by jesperlang 7y ago

gambiting 7y ago
Only yesterday I had a "discussion" with someone online who was trying to explain to me that climate change is fake concept made to charge more money for everything through environmental regulations. I kept sending him more and more data proving that no, we really really are screwed, but eventually I just got called an eco-cuck(whatever that even means) who believes made up research. And no, this was not the first time I had a similar conversation with people. I don't know, I just don't have a strength to do this anymore. Humanity is clearly in danger and yet there is a very vocal minority that keeps pretending none of this is happening and actively attacks anyone who says otherwise. I just feel like giving up on even trying anymore.
- tartuffe78 7y ago
  Don't engage them, that just gives them a platform
  - gambiting 7y ago
    I'd argue that if you don't engage them then that just bolsters them. If you go on Facebook and look at any post about this there will be hundreds if not thousands of comments spewing nonsense about climate change being fake. They all do that because they see other people doing it and absolutely no one challenging them. They feel like everyone is on their side because....that's what it looks like.
- RappingBoomer 7y ago
  academia is 90% scam...climate change is 100% scam...by the way, how come global warming morphed into climate change?
- perfunctory 7y ago
  > I just feel like giving up on even trying anymore. Please don’t. Consider that your audience is not a vocal minority (you can pretty much ignore them), but silent majority. Majority of Americans actually believe in man-made climate change (google gallup polls), they just don’t have it at the top of their priority list.
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  This has been a problem for people already thousands of years ago. Stoicism is one way to deal with it. https://zenpencils.com/comic/aurelius/ https://zenpencils.com/comic/aurelius/
- Kecelij 7y ago
  well, what are you gonna do about the global warming? convince people to stop using their IPhones, stop using your PC, stop driving cars, stop using electricity. Bam, problem solved. Or try to overthrow corporations with big carbon monoxide signatures. Yeah, I didn't think so. It is an immensely complex problem that has no easy solution, and people talking about it is not gonna do much, or is it??
  - aaomidi 7y ago
    If you believe in Capitalism: Step 1: Assign a cost for CO2 emissions. Step 2: Let the market deal with the costs. Step 3: Asses if the cost was at the right amount. Adjust if necessary and repeat. If you don't believe in Capitalism: Step 1: Change the governmental system to a system of your liking. Step 2: Find a way in this new system to control what companies do. e.g. state planned economics, regulations, etc.
    - Kecelij 7y ago
      Best control is no control. Taoist anarchy is my political system of choice.
- petercooper 7y ago
  Humanity is clearly in danger and yet there is a very vocal minority that keeps pretending none of this is happening You'll get cranks and opponents on everything. The real problem is the overwhelming majority of people who think "OK, sure, bad stuff is happening, but what impact do my simple efforts make to improve it? Meh." Platitudes about how the world will be destroyed will not sway those people to act en masse - there needs to be some other element to it, but what? (I personally lean towards the eventual technological solutions, since technology has dug us out of many a hole before.)
  - perfunctory 7y ago
    I am sorry, but believing in a magic technological breakthrough at this stage is just another form of denial, and another version of "but what impact do I make. Meh, I'll just sit and wait for the technological solution".
    - majewsky 7y ago
      The problem is that all the deniers are pushing us further down the road where the magical technological breakthrough is really the only option we have left.
    - petercooper 7y ago
      No, denial is asserting that something is not happening or does not exist. I posit that the majority of the world is broadly inactive over climate change but acknowledges and observes its effects. I do broadly think that only a technological or government-driven solution is viable, however, because unless everyone does something significant, the needle won't move, and everyone won't do something significant without being forced or radically assisted.
      - perfunctory 7y ago
        I do agree with you. The question is how do we get there. The government won't act by itself. It won't act unless we the people demand it. What gives me hope is that we might not need to wait for the majority vote. Apparently it only takes 3.5% of the population to get serious about something to effect change - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w So, let's get out of our technology bubble, away from keyboard, and let's go do something.
zerogvt 7y ago
I'll probably get downvoted to the ground but somebody needs to say it. The problem is not with climate change deniers. Most people agree that climate change is happening. That's hard to deny when it's all around you. The million dollar question is whether and to what degree is human-made. And that's where science messed up big time. It is scientific bodies that have chipped away their credibility with their malpractices. Reproducibility crisis and flu-scares just to mention a few that come to mind. So - given that the authoritative voices in the matter seem all too often not to practice science but rather a variant of "research" with a lot of strings attached - then it is no wonder that people choose to not trust them at all. Enter hard-core climate change deniers, anti-vaccination and what have you.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  > The million dollar question is whether and to what degree is human-made. This is just another form of denial.
- eledumb 7y ago
  I believe that most of what believe about our climate has been pushed by "researchers" operating based on the attached strings, going back to the mid to late 80's, and I also believe that things are much worse than anyone thinks. The earth and climate was operating in a very delicate balance, and humans disrupted the balance starting with the industrial revolution. Humans kept disrupting the balance until the changes we've wrought pushed the earth and climate past another tipping point, a tipping point where the earth and climate started operating independently of human greenhouse gas output. Which is where we stand today. Human output isn't helping, but we've gone past a point where eliminating our output will bring the system back into balance. The earth itself is now driving the climate changes, not humans. The earth and climate have 3 very large and powerful positive feedback loops running, warming oceans, thawing permafrost and melting glaciers, and the resource driving all three feedback loops are greenhouse gases. The oceans, permafrost and glaciers harbor massive amounts of greenhouse gases, and typically positive feedback loops don't stop until they run out of resources, and I believe it's true for the 3 I've outlined. Hubris got us here, "oh, how can humans disrupt the earth and climate, it's so massive, everything will be fine." Back in the day I got labeled as a tree hugging crazy hippy, basically by everyone. Hubris still driving us, "if we reduce our output just a little bit we can completely change the direction of the earth and climate, this massive system" Today I'm labeled as climate change denier, because I don't think we can fix things, and I'm still labeled as crazy.

60 points by jesperlang 7y ago

Only yesterday I had a "discussion" with someone online who was trying to explain to me that climate change is fake concept made to charge more money for everything through environmental regulations. I kept sending him more and more data proving that no, we really really are screwed, but eventually I just got called an eco-cuck(whatever that even means) who believes made up research. And no, this was not the first time I had a similar conversation with people. I don't know, I just don't have a strength to do this anymore. Humanity is clearly in danger and yet there is a very vocal minority that keeps pretending none of this is happening and actively attacks anyone who says otherwise. I just feel like giving up on even trying anymore.

tartuffe78 7y ago
Don't engage them, that just gives them a platform
- gambiting 7y ago
  I'd argue that if you don't engage them then that just bolsters them. If you go on Facebook and look at any post about this there will be hundreds if not thousands of comments spewing nonsense about climate change being fake. They all do that because they see other people doing it and absolutely no one challenging them. They feel like everyone is on their side because....that's what it looks like.
RappingBoomer 7y ago
academia is 90% scam...climate change is 100% scam...by the way, how come global warming morphed into climate change?
perfunctory 7y ago
> I just feel like giving up on even trying anymore. Please don’t. Consider that your audience is not a vocal minority (you can pretty much ignore them), but silent majority. Majority of Americans actually believe in man-made climate change (google gallup polls), they just don’t have it at the top of their priority list.
Gravityloss 7y ago
This has been a problem for people already thousands of years ago. Stoicism is one way to deal with it. https://zenpencils.com/comic/aurelius/ https://zenpencils.com/comic/aurelius/
Kecelij 7y ago
well, what are you gonna do about the global warming? convince people to stop using their IPhones, stop using your PC, stop driving cars, stop using electricity. Bam, problem solved. Or try to overthrow corporations with big carbon monoxide signatures. Yeah, I didn't think so. It is an immensely complex problem that has no easy solution, and people talking about it is not gonna do much, or is it??
- aaomidi 7y ago
  If you believe in Capitalism: Step 1: Assign a cost for CO2 emissions. Step 2: Let the market deal with the costs. Step 3: Asses if the cost was at the right amount. Adjust if necessary and repeat. If you don't believe in Capitalism: Step 1: Change the governmental system to a system of your liking. Step 2: Find a way in this new system to control what companies do. e.g. state planned economics, regulations, etc.
  - Kecelij 7y ago
    Best control is no control. Taoist anarchy is my political system of choice.
petercooper 7y ago
Humanity is clearly in danger and yet there is a very vocal minority that keeps pretending none of this is happening You'll get cranks and opponents on everything. The real problem is the overwhelming majority of people who think "OK, sure, bad stuff is happening, but what impact do my simple efforts make to improve it? Meh." Platitudes about how the world will be destroyed will not sway those people to act en masse - there needs to be some other element to it, but what? (I personally lean towards the eventual technological solutions, since technology has dug us out of many a hole before.)
- perfunctory 7y ago
  I am sorry, but believing in a magic technological breakthrough at this stage is just another form of denial, and another version of "but what impact do I make. Meh, I'll just sit and wait for the technological solution".
  - majewsky 7y ago
    The problem is that all the deniers are pushing us further down the road where the magical technological breakthrough is really the only option we have left.
  - petercooper 7y ago
    No, denial is asserting that something is not happening or does not exist. I posit that the majority of the world is broadly inactive over climate change but acknowledges and observes its effects. I do broadly think that only a technological or government-driven solution is viable, however, because unless everyone does something significant, the needle won't move, and everyone won't do something significant without being forced or radically assisted.
    - perfunctory 7y ago
      I do agree with you. The question is how do we get there. The government won't act by itself. It won't act unless we the people demand it. What gives me hope is that we might not need to wait for the majority vote. Apparently it only takes 3.5% of the population to get serious about something to effect change - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w So, let's get out of our technology bubble, away from keyboard, and let's go do something.

zerogvt 7y ago

I'll probably get downvoted to the ground but somebody needs to say it. The problem is not with climate change deniers. Most people agree that climate change is happening. That's hard to deny when it's all around you. The million dollar question is whether and to what degree is human-made. And that's where science messed up big time. It is scientific bodies that have chipped away their credibility with their malpractices. Reproducibility crisis and flu-scares just to mention a few that come to mind. So - given that the authoritative voices in the matter seem all too often not to practice science but rather a variant of "research" with a lot of strings attached - then it is no wonder that people choose to not trust them at all. Enter hard-core climate change deniers, anti-vaccination and what have you.

perfunctory 7y ago
> The million dollar question is whether and to what degree is human-made. This is just another form of denial.
eledumb 7y ago
I believe that most of what believe about our climate has been pushed by "researchers" operating based on the attached strings, going back to the mid to late 80's, and I also believe that things are much worse than anyone thinks. The earth and climate was operating in a very delicate balance, and humans disrupted the balance starting with the industrial revolution. Humans kept disrupting the balance until the changes we've wrought pushed the earth and climate past another tipping point, a tipping point where the earth and climate started operating independently of human greenhouse gas output. Which is where we stand today. Human output isn't helping, but we've gone past a point where eliminating our output will bring the system back into balance. The earth itself is now driving the climate changes, not humans. The earth and climate have 3 very large and powerful positive feedback loops running, warming oceans, thawing permafrost and melting glaciers, and the resource driving all three feedback loops are greenhouse gases. The oceans, permafrost and glaciers harbor massive amounts of greenhouse gases, and typically positive feedback loops don't stop until they run out of resources, and I believe it's true for the 3 I've outlined. Hubris got us here, "oh, how can humans disrupt the earth and climate, it's so massive, everything will be fine." Back in the day I got labeled as a tree hugging crazy hippy, basically by everyone. Hubris still driving us, "if we reduce our output just a little bit we can completely change the direction of the earth and climate, this massive system" Today I'm labeled as climate change denier, because I don't think we can fix things, and I'm still labeled as crazy.