8 ms·

He didn't convince me that the occupation of Gaza is almost over. I may not be an expert on the current state of the near-east conflicts, but it seemed to me a

He didn't convince me that the occupation of Gaza is almost over. I may not be an expert on the current state of the near-east conflicts, but it seemed to me as if the state of Israel doesn't really want to acknowledge the Palestinians as either citizens of Israel or as entitled to their own state. And the Palestinians are not going to cease existing just because they are inconvenient for the established states in the region. Nor do they seem to be able to reign in the radical elements in their midst.

faissaloo 7y ago
They have zero incentive to reign in their so called 'radical elements', they live in an apartheid state.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  "Apartheid state" is an incendiary and useless label, though the comparison is indeed useful. Unfortunately, the continuing violence of Palestinians against Israelis and the rhetoric about the destruction of Israel are the main argument for maintaining that oppression. And a particularly good one, as far as reasons for oppressing people go.
  - aptidude187 7y ago
    "The continuing violence of Palestinians against Israelis" - This framing is just the manifestation of utter ignorance or of blatant bias. For those who are interested and want to construct their own opinion: [Genocidal Views: Israelis Speak Candidly About Palestinians](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4 https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4) [Israeli Army Vet’s Exposé - “I Was the Terrorist”](https://youtu.be/1Rk1dAIhiVc https://youtu.be/1Rk1dAIhiVc) [Irish MP reads out quotes made by Israeli Ministers](https://youtu.be/5utTDGS3B_Q https://youtu.be/5utTDGS3B_Q) [If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine](https://ifamericaknew.org/ https://ifamericaknew.org/) [Empire Files: How Palestine Became Colonized](https://youtu.be/BT5L4YU_Fl4 https://youtu.be/BT5L4YU_Fl4)
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      What framing? It's absolutely true that Palestinians are committing acts of terror/violence against Israeli citizens. I'm not saying that all of them do it. I'm not even saying most of them support violence against Israel/Israelis, though you could get that impression when listening to their leaders. Both small scale violence with knifes or guns, up to rockets, are an undeniable fact. I am purposely depicting both sides. Just as I am not ignoring the suffering of Palestinians at the hand of Israeli forces, and that Israeli forces have at times gone far beyond what is morally or legally justifiable. But it doesn't help to label this "Apartheid". It's a totally different conflict with different causes and entirely different solutions. If Israelis where to give citizenship to all Palestinians (and I would say the Palestinians have some claim to that), Israel would cease to exist and I highly doubt Palestinians would protect Jewish Israelis... This is the most difficult and complicated conflict in the world in our time. There are no simple solutions, but the last thing that helps is to heap blame on one side.
      - aptidude187 7y ago
        "What framing?" - Surely, you must be joking. Trust me, classifying your previous statements as framing, is putting it mildly, it is a vile attempt at justifying the horrific human rights violations Israel has been committing for more than 70 years and pretending it's somehow the victim's fault. Only someone who is ignorant about the history of this colonisation project can fall for your narrative. "But it doesn't help to label this "Apartheid" - It is apartheid, so it is labeled as such. Even Archbishop Tutu declared that the treatment of Palestinians reminded him of apartheid, only worse.[0] Actually it's hard to imagine a more cartoonishly apartheid situation. In the west bank there are even separate roads for Jews and Arabs.[1,2] "Israel would cease to exist and I highly doubt Palestinians would protect Jewish Israelis....This is the most difficult and complicated conflict in the world in our time." - This is a talking point of radical zionist settlers. It's not a "complicated conflict" by any stretch of the imagination, it's simple settler colonialism. People who live in terrible conditions incline towards desperate measures. Stopping the land grabs and dismantling the largest open air concentration camp would be a good start for more humane interactions. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/03/israel-treatment-palestinians-apartheid-south-africa https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/03/israel... [1] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-apartheid-20140518-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-a... [2] https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/segregated-roads-west-bank https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/segregated-roads-we...
  - faissaloo 7y ago
    The label is intended to evoke an emotional response. The very presence of the state of israel is an act of violence.
- avip 7y ago
  I think you are confused. The “apartheid state” is in the West Bank. It’s “occupying terrorist state” in Gaza. There’s no Israeli presence there other than Israeli water, electricity, petrol, money and occasional bombs.
aerodog 7y ago
I don't think Israel wants to acknowledge Palestinians as human beings, frankly
- jacobush 7y ago
  At least the deputy minister for defence agreed (2014) with that assessment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5utTDGS3B_Q&feature=youtu.be&t=87 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5utTDGS3B_Q&feature=youtu.be... "Palestinians are beasts, they are not human"
bsaul 7y ago
Note that the palestinians themselves also don't really seem to acknowledge jews as citizen of Israel or as entitled to their own state (calling Israel "the zionist entity", and not even representing their neighbour on a map in schoolbooks). Also, note that this view is also shared by a lot of arab countries. This indeed doesn't paint a very bright future for the region.
- mantap 7y ago
  Why would they when Israel doesn't recognize Palestine as a state? Why should anybody maintain that double standard least of all the people who are at the raw end of it. Do you think that if they did recognize Israel then Israel would automatically return the favor and recognize a Palestinian state? Of course not.
  - didgeoridoo 7y ago
    “Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip.”[0] This is exactly what Israel proposed at Camp David in 2000. Arafat rejected it without a counter-offer. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
  - bsaul 7y ago
    i think the original 1947 UN proposition of partition was accepted by the jews and not the arab population of the region (at the time we didn't use the term "palestinian" to speak of arabs living there). This was the best time because the situation was a bit more symetrical then. Just two people on one land who couldn't live next to each others and had to be split.
  - ocschwar 7y ago
    > Why would they when Israel doesn't recognize Palestine as a state? In order to get Palestine recognized by Israel as a state. > Do you think that if they did recognize Israel then Israel would automatically return the favor and recognize a Palestinian state? Israel holds regular elections in which power is peacefully handed over. The Israeli public is a lot more likely to recognize a Palestinian state if that state's actions include something better than continual promises to restore Jews to a subjugated state. But, Hamas's Gaza continues to hold rallies in which such lovely slogans as "Palestine is ours and the Jews are our dogs." Seems a little counter productive.
jraby3 7y ago
I think what’s quite often forgotten in statements like this is that Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza 15 years ago, and Gazans then had an election in which they elected Hamas. Since then, Hamas has launched thousands of rockets into Israel with the express purpose of targeting civilians, while Israel has lost a huge buffer zone (Hamas now reaches major cities like Beersheva with their rockets). Worst part IMO is that there have not been any new elections and that Hamas has started enacting Sharia law in Gaza.
- mantap 7y ago
  If there have not been any new elections how can you attribute the violence to the Palestinian people, many of whom would have been children 15 years ago. And if the application of sharia law is cause for blockading a country and rendering its inhabitants stateless then we had better start blockading most of the Middle East.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
  ...And what you're forgetting is that thanks to Iron Dome, those rockets kill fewer people than, say, electric scooters in Tel Aviv. And that Gaza is subject to an economic blockade making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. That's not even mentioning the slow annexation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel is now officially rejecting a two-state solution, and they are obviously rejecting the idea of giving palestinians full citizenship (which would render jewish Israelis the minority). That implies, logically, that Israel is now denying Palestinians the perspective of any sort of democracy. Violence against civilians is wrong. But it isn't unheard of in a struggle for self-determination. It's inexcusably wrong for (some) Palestinians to deny Israel's right to exist within the borders of '68. But the enormous power differential between the parties simply places the burden of taking the first step on Israel's shoulders.
  - pugio 7y ago
    > making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. The blockade certainly makes things difficult, but, like all things, the actual situation is much more complex than that. The people in power in Gaza seem to find it much more expedient for things to remain bad, and all the hate, negative energy, and blame to be directed at Israel, than to put real effort into making things better. Regarding, for example, your mention of electricity, I've had conversations with people who tried to set up a working electric plant within Gaza, and were stymied by a baffling level of neglect, poor workmanship, and inattention to cleanliness or detail on the part of the Gazans. (I'm not making a general statement about Gazans here, just the ones involved with the project.) It seems sometimes as though the people there feel that if they were to give up some of the hate, anger, and outrage towards Israel (justified or not), and actually devote their full energies to improving what they have, then they'd be selling out their cause. A prospering Gaza is a less effective critique of Israeli policy, and a less useful weapon on the public stage in the battle to reclaim ancestral lands.

faissaloo 7y ago

They have zero incentive to reign in their so called 'radical elements', they live in an apartheid state.

bayesian_horse 7y ago
"Apartheid state" is an incendiary and useless label, though the comparison is indeed useful. Unfortunately, the continuing violence of Palestinians against Israelis and the rhetoric about the destruction of Israel are the main argument for maintaining that oppression. And a particularly good one, as far as reasons for oppressing people go.
- aptidude187 7y ago
  "The continuing violence of Palestinians against Israelis" - This framing is just the manifestation of utter ignorance or of blatant bias. For those who are interested and want to construct their own opinion: [Genocidal Views: Israelis Speak Candidly About Palestinians](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4 https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4) [Israeli Army Vet’s Exposé - “I Was the Terrorist”](https://youtu.be/1Rk1dAIhiVc https://youtu.be/1Rk1dAIhiVc) [Irish MP reads out quotes made by Israeli Ministers](https://youtu.be/5utTDGS3B_Q https://youtu.be/5utTDGS3B_Q) [If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine](https://ifamericaknew.org/ https://ifamericaknew.org/) [Empire Files: How Palestine Became Colonized](https://youtu.be/BT5L4YU_Fl4 https://youtu.be/BT5L4YU_Fl4)
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    What framing? It's absolutely true that Palestinians are committing acts of terror/violence against Israeli citizens. I'm not saying that all of them do it. I'm not even saying most of them support violence against Israel/Israelis, though you could get that impression when listening to their leaders. Both small scale violence with knifes or guns, up to rockets, are an undeniable fact. I am purposely depicting both sides. Just as I am not ignoring the suffering of Palestinians at the hand of Israeli forces, and that Israeli forces have at times gone far beyond what is morally or legally justifiable. But it doesn't help to label this "Apartheid". It's a totally different conflict with different causes and entirely different solutions. If Israelis where to give citizenship to all Palestinians (and I would say the Palestinians have some claim to that), Israel would cease to exist and I highly doubt Palestinians would protect Jewish Israelis... This is the most difficult and complicated conflict in the world in our time. There are no simple solutions, but the last thing that helps is to heap blame on one side.
    - aptidude187 7y ago
      "What framing?" - Surely, you must be joking. Trust me, classifying your previous statements as framing, is putting it mildly, it is a vile attempt at justifying the horrific human rights violations Israel has been committing for more than 70 years and pretending it's somehow the victim's fault. Only someone who is ignorant about the history of this colonisation project can fall for your narrative. "But it doesn't help to label this "Apartheid" - It is apartheid, so it is labeled as such. Even Archbishop Tutu declared that the treatment of Palestinians reminded him of apartheid, only worse.[0] Actually it's hard to imagine a more cartoonishly apartheid situation. In the west bank there are even separate roads for Jews and Arabs.[1,2] "Israel would cease to exist and I highly doubt Palestinians would protect Jewish Israelis....This is the most difficult and complicated conflict in the world in our time." - This is a talking point of radical zionist settlers. It's not a "complicated conflict" by any stretch of the imagination, it's simple settler colonialism. People who live in terrible conditions incline towards desperate measures. Stopping the land grabs and dismantling the largest open air concentration camp would be a good start for more humane interactions. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/03/israel-treatment-palestinians-apartheid-south-africa https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/03/israel... [1] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-apartheid-20140518-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-a... [2] https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/segregated-roads-west-bank https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/segregated-roads-we...
- faissaloo 7y ago
  The label is intended to evoke an emotional response. The very presence of the state of israel is an act of violence.
avip 7y ago
I think you are confused. The “apartheid state” is in the West Bank. It’s “occupying terrorist state” in Gaza. There’s no Israeli presence there other than Israeli water, electricity, petrol, money and occasional bombs.

aerodog 7y ago

I don't think Israel wants to acknowledge Palestinians as human beings, frankly

jacobush 7y ago
At least the deputy minister for defence agreed (2014) with that assessment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5utTDGS3B_Q&feature=youtu.be&t=87 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5utTDGS3B_Q&feature=youtu.be... "Palestinians are beasts, they are not human"

bsaul 7y ago

Note that the palestinians themselves also don't really seem to acknowledge jews as citizen of Israel or as entitled to their own state (calling Israel "the zionist entity", and not even representing their neighbour on a map in schoolbooks). Also, note that this view is also shared by a lot of arab countries. This indeed doesn't paint a very bright future for the region.

mantap 7y ago
Why would they when Israel doesn't recognize Palestine as a state? Why should anybody maintain that double standard least of all the people who are at the raw end of it. Do you think that if they did recognize Israel then Israel would automatically return the favor and recognize a Palestinian state? Of course not.
- didgeoridoo 7y ago
  “Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip.”[0] This is exactly what Israel proposed at Camp David in 2000. Arafat rejected it without a counter-offer. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
- bsaul 7y ago
  i think the original 1947 UN proposition of partition was accepted by the jews and not the arab population of the region (at the time we didn't use the term "palestinian" to speak of arabs living there). This was the best time because the situation was a bit more symetrical then. Just two people on one land who couldn't live next to each others and had to be split.
- ocschwar 7y ago
  > Why would they when Israel doesn't recognize Palestine as a state? In order to get Palestine recognized by Israel as a state. > Do you think that if they did recognize Israel then Israel would automatically return the favor and recognize a Palestinian state? Israel holds regular elections in which power is peacefully handed over. The Israeli public is a lot more likely to recognize a Palestinian state if that state's actions include something better than continual promises to restore Jews to a subjugated state. But, Hamas's Gaza continues to hold rallies in which such lovely slogans as "Palestine is ours and the Jews are our dogs." Seems a little counter productive.

jraby3 7y ago

I think what’s quite often forgotten in statements like this is that Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza 15 years ago, and Gazans then had an election in which they elected Hamas. Since then, Hamas has launched thousands of rockets into Israel with the express purpose of targeting civilians, while Israel has lost a huge buffer zone (Hamas now reaches major cities like Beersheva with their rockets). Worst part IMO is that there have not been any new elections and that Hamas has started enacting Sharia law in Gaza.

mantap 7y ago
If there have not been any new elections how can you attribute the violence to the Palestinian people, many of whom would have been children 15 years ago. And if the application of sharia law is cause for blockading a country and rendering its inhabitants stateless then we had better start blockading most of the Middle East.
IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
...And what you're forgetting is that thanks to Iron Dome, those rockets kill fewer people than, say, electric scooters in Tel Aviv. And that Gaza is subject to an economic blockade making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. That's not even mentioning the slow annexation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel is now officially rejecting a two-state solution, and they are obviously rejecting the idea of giving palestinians full citizenship (which would render jewish Israelis the minority). That implies, logically, that Israel is now denying Palestinians the perspective of any sort of democracy. Violence against civilians is wrong. But it isn't unheard of in a struggle for self-determination. It's inexcusably wrong for (some) Palestinians to deny Israel's right to exist within the borders of '68. But the enormous power differential between the parties simply places the burden of taking the first step on Israel's shoulders.
- pugio 7y ago
  > making it basically impossible to do, well, anything but be poor and angry: No fishing, no trade, unreliable electricity, not enough fuel, slow internet, etc. The blockade certainly makes things difficult, but, like all things, the actual situation is much more complex than that. The people in power in Gaza seem to find it much more expedient for things to remain bad, and all the hate, negative energy, and blame to be directed at Israel, than to put real effort into making things better. Regarding, for example, your mention of electricity, I've had conversations with people who tried to set up a working electric plant within Gaza, and were stymied by a baffling level of neglect, poor workmanship, and inattention to cleanliness or detail on the part of the Gazans. (I'm not making a general statement about Gazans here, just the ones involved with the project.) It seems sometimes as though the people there feel that if they were to give up some of the hate, anger, and outrage towards Israel (justified or not), and actually devote their full energies to improving what they have, then they'd be selling out their cause. A prospering Gaza is a less effective critique of Israeli policy, and a less useful weapon on the public stage in the battle to reclaim ancestral lands.