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> "I think we must be at the point where it's arguably irresponsible journalism for The Information to broadcast a claim like that from Facebook without immedia

> "I think we must be at the point where it's arguably irresponsible journalism for The Information to broadcast a claim like that from Facebook without immediately pointing out the occasions in the past when identical claims about data collection have turned out to be barefaced lies." I am struggling to recall any unambiguous instances like you suggest, especially anything rising to the level of "barefaced lies". What would be the best examples? I agree that journalists should give sufficient context about Facebook's history around data and privacy, but I also expect anyone that is subscribing to The Information doesn't need it rehashed for them.

shakna 7y ago
The time they collected phone numbers for express reason of 2FA, and then began using them to lookup and connect contacts?
- SeanBoocock 7y ago
  Do you have any links with contemporaneous public messaging from Facebook about that? I am curious because the OP made a strong claim: that Facebook deliberately and specifically misled the public; and that there have been so many instances of this exposed that any journalist who fails to cite them is negligent.
  - shakna 7y ago
    Gizmodo [0] did the original reporting on what I've mentioned, based on the work of Alan Mislove amongst others. Facebook's official statement when 2FA numbers started being made available for other purposes was: > “We outline the information we receive and use for ads in our data policy, and give people control over their ads experience including custom audiences, via their ad preferences,” said a spokesperson by email. “For more information about how to manage your preferences and the type of data we use to show people ads see this post.” They saw no reason to deny it. Any information handed to Facebook may be used for any purpose, even if it is not apparent to the user that they will exploit data given under one function for another unrelated function. As a sibling has pointed out with several sources - this isn't new behaviour for Facebook. [0] https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/09/facebook-is-giving-advertisers-access-to-your-shadow-contact-information/ https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/09/facebook-is-giving-advert... [1] https://mislove.org/publications/PII-PETS.pdf https://mislove.org/publications/PII-PETS.pdf
    - miracle2k 7y ago
      But a general collection of potentially unethical or unseemly behavior is not the thing that we are looking for. The claim was that Facebook is known to engage in that behavior while then also lying about it when questioned.
      - shakna 7y ago
        > The claim was that Facebook is known to engage in that behavior while then also lying about it when questioned. That is not how I read the parent. Facebook asked for a phone number for 2FA (purpose). Facebook then supplied that information for ad-targetting (definitely not what the user expects or agreed to). There was nothing on the page when filling in the phone number that it might then be used for something other than 2FA. Just a general statement in their inhuman ToS that they can repurpose data. That can very reasonably be construed that Facebook lied to the user - they weren't adequately informed. It certainly wouldn't be informed consent in most contexts. --- But! If we are to take the view of whether Facebook has said one thing while actively doing another... Then the Cambridge Analytica scandal had it's own moment of that. > “Every piece of content that you share on Facebook you own,” he [Zuckerberg] testified. ”You have complete control over who sees it and how you share it.” > Facebook’s view that the device makers are not outsiders lets the partners go even further, The Times found: They can obtain data about a user’s Facebook friends, even those who have denied Facebook permission to share information with any third parties. So, Facebook's official position was that you control your data, and who has access to it - but they didn't view device makers as a third party, and thus any device maker could overrule a user's choice and see their data if they wished. As to the scale of the information a device maker can access... > After connecting to Facebook, the BlackBerry Hub app was able to retrieve detailed data on 556 of Mr. LaForgia's friends, including relationship status, religious and political leanings and events they planned to attend. Facebook has said that it cut off third parties' access to this type of information in 2015, but that it does not consider BlackBerry a third party in this case.
brianpgordon 7y ago
Some examples I dug up, in chronological order: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/facebook-settles-ftc-charges-it-deceived-consumers-failing-keep https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/faceb... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/faceb... https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/09/27/hill-facebook https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/09/27/hill-facebook https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/technology/facebook-privacy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/technology/facebook-priva... / https://twitter.com/SenBlumenthal/status/1003643865797218304 https://twitter.com/SenBlumenthal/status/1003643865797218304 / https://twitter.com/davidcicilline/status/1003469710216892416 https://twitter.com/davidcicilline/status/100346971021689241... https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/03/02/facebook-caught-lying-about-spying-on-teenage-users-data-yet-again/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/03/02/facebook-...

shakna 7y ago

The time they collected phone numbers for express reason of 2FA, and then began using them to lookup and connect contacts?

SeanBoocock 7y ago
Do you have any links with contemporaneous public messaging from Facebook about that? I am curious because the OP made a strong claim: that Facebook deliberately and specifically misled the public; and that there have been so many instances of this exposed that any journalist who fails to cite them is negligent.
- shakna 7y ago
  Gizmodo [0] did the original reporting on what I've mentioned, based on the work of Alan Mislove amongst others. Facebook's official statement when 2FA numbers started being made available for other purposes was: > “We outline the information we receive and use for ads in our data policy, and give people control over their ads experience including custom audiences, via their ad preferences,” said a spokesperson by email. “For more information about how to manage your preferences and the type of data we use to show people ads see this post.” They saw no reason to deny it. Any information handed to Facebook may be used for any purpose, even if it is not apparent to the user that they will exploit data given under one function for another unrelated function. As a sibling has pointed out with several sources - this isn't new behaviour for Facebook. [0] https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/09/facebook-is-giving-advertisers-access-to-your-shadow-contact-information/ https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/09/facebook-is-giving-advert... [1] https://mislove.org/publications/PII-PETS.pdf https://mislove.org/publications/PII-PETS.pdf
  - miracle2k 7y ago
    But a general collection of potentially unethical or unseemly behavior is not the thing that we are looking for. The claim was that Facebook is known to engage in that behavior while then also lying about it when questioned.
    - shakna 7y ago
      > The claim was that Facebook is known to engage in that behavior while then also lying about it when questioned. That is not how I read the parent. Facebook asked for a phone number for 2FA (purpose). Facebook then supplied that information for ad-targetting (definitely not what the user expects or agreed to). There was nothing on the page when filling in the phone number that it might then be used for something other than 2FA. Just a general statement in their inhuman ToS that they can repurpose data. That can very reasonably be construed that Facebook lied to the user - they weren't adequately informed. It certainly wouldn't be informed consent in most contexts. --- But! If we are to take the view of whether Facebook has said one thing while actively doing another... Then the Cambridge Analytica scandal had it's own moment of that. > “Every piece of content that you share on Facebook you own,” he [Zuckerberg] testified. ”You have complete control over who sees it and how you share it.” > Facebook’s view that the device makers are not outsiders lets the partners go even further, The Times found: They can obtain data about a user’s Facebook friends, even those who have denied Facebook permission to share information with any third parties. So, Facebook's official position was that you control your data, and who has access to it - but they didn't view device makers as a third party, and thus any device maker could overrule a user's choice and see their data if they wished. As to the scale of the information a device maker can access... > After connecting to Facebook, the BlackBerry Hub app was able to retrieve detailed data on 556 of Mr. LaForgia's friends, including relationship status, religious and political leanings and events they planned to attend. Facebook has said that it cut off third parties' access to this type of information in 2015, but that it does not consider BlackBerry a third party in this case.

brianpgordon 7y ago

Some examples I dug up, in chronological order: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/facebook-settles-ftc-charges-it-deceived-consumers-failing-keep https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/faceb... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/faceb... https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/09/27/hill-facebook https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/09/27/hill-facebook https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/technology/facebook-privacy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/technology/facebook-priva... / https://twitter.com/SenBlumenthal/status/1003643865797218304 https://twitter.com/SenBlumenthal/status/1003643865797218304 / https://twitter.com/davidcicilline/status/1003469710216892416 https://twitter.com/davidcicilline/status/100346971021689241... https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/03/02/facebook-caught-lying-about-spying-on-teenage-users-data-yet-again/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/03/02/facebook-...