4 ms·

No it does not make more agreeable. We had slavery back in the day, in some instances we still have it, but just because we have enough ppl doing something does

No it does not make more agreeable. We had slavery back in the day, in some instances we still have it, but just because we have enough ppl doing something does not make it more “agreeable”. Ethics is not something dictated by a number of ppl sharing a belief.

abfan1127 7y ago
this seems like the idea that Americans eat cows and pigs, but not horses and dogs... not necessarily an ethical issue, but more a social norms issue.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  > not necessarily an ethical issue, but more a social norms issue. I'm not convinced these two things are mutually exclusive. I'd even guess that social norms are most often spurred to change by people who start the conversation about the flawed "ethics" of a given social norm.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
>Ethics is not something dictated by a number of ppl sharing a belief. Unless you believe ethics is given from some sort of higher authority, ethics is dictated by the number of people sharing a belief.
- john-radio 7y ago
  Nope, that's a false dichotomy. The ethical system you're proposing signs off on cannibalism of 49% of people as long as 51% of people click their heels together and really wish that cannibalism were ethical...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- martimarkov 7y ago
  My argument is that a higher number of believers doesn’t make something more ethically correct. My personal belief is that we have a responsibility for all species on our planet (as the most intelligent, evolved, smart, etc of them). Even if everyone believes except 1 person that does not make their argument less or our argument more valid. Purely from an ethical perspective.
  - throwaway8879 7y ago
    I understand your perspective, but as the GP said, ethics is exactly whatever the collective Haas decided it is. Unless we're involving God or some kind of external divine guidelines on ethics, it's pretty much something we've collectively agreed to. Let's at least be honest about our moral/ethical frameworks. They are useful for social cohesiveness, peace and order. But they're still just made up.
    - bscphil 7y ago
      > I understand your perspective, but as the GP said, ethics is exactly whatever the collective Haas decided it is. Unless we're involving God or some kind of external divine guidelines on ethics, it's pretty much something we've collectively agreed to. I don't have time for a complete response, but as an expert in this field (ethics) I feel compelled to let you know that nearly every professional philosopher (particularly in ethics) disagrees with this position. Ethics is not simply whatever the majority says it is. You're not going to get anyone in ethics (including those who think ethics are in some sense "made up") to sign off on that.
      - matz1 7y ago
        >that nearly every professional philosopher >You're not going to get anyone in ethics Isn't this exactly an argument supporting collective position ?
      - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
        > that nearly every professional philosopher (particularly in ethics) disagrees with this position. So you are (at least partially) defining ethics by the consensus of people (in your case professional philosophers). Even in pure mathematics, which is considered to be among the most rigorous of fields, a whole lot depends on consensus about axioms and consensus about what is a valid proof. Yes, I agree there are logical principles for determining ethical actions given a set of ethical axioms, but however, the ethical axioms themselves, and indeed the logical principles, are determined by consensus.
- pavanky 7y ago
  I dont care who or what is dictating them, as long as they are consistent. If someone is making the claim that it is OK to eat anything as long as they are delicious, I want to know what their stand on cannibalism is.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
    How about if someone makes the claim that their ethical framework is to try to maximize pleasure and minimize suffering for humans. Therefore since eating delicious animals brings pleasure to many humans, and does not cause suffering for humans, it is a good thing.
    - lprubin 7y ago
      I think then the discussion would be around why only minimizing suffering for humans. If minimizing suffering is a good thing, why is there not also value in minimizing suffering for all beings that can suffer?
      - spdionis 7y ago
        Because there's no pleasure in that for humans? Of course that becomes wrong if many humans embrace the idea that minimizing suffering for animals is a good thing. At that point you would also be increasing the humans' "moral/ethical pleasure" in a kind of self fulfilling way. But there's no reason for this to happen except human hubris.
  - matz1 7y ago
    My ethical framework is ethical egoism. Therefore I consider eating octopus is good but cannibalism is bad. Because cannibalism, even if it delicious, is not practical, and maybe illegal thus will cause me trouble.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      Promoting cannibalism is generally not a good policy if only because you could be next.
- chibg10 7y ago
  The truth value of a given logical proposition is independent of how many people believe either way about it. You're mistaking ethics as a branch of philosophy for norms dictated by society.
  - matz1 7y ago
    The truth value of given logical proposition is dependent on people agreeing in some common axiom.
    - chibg10 7y ago
      Right, and that choice of axiom is how two reasonable people can come to wildly different conclusions about a subject even after spending time resolving reconcilable differences. But empirically speaking, almost all people would agree at a high-level that minimizing suffering is an agreeable axiom.
      - matz1 7y ago
        yes so if you can make almost all people would agree that eating octopus is bad or eating octopus is good then that will be the outcome.
      - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
        >almost all people would agree at a high-level that minimizing suffering is an agreeable axiom Yes, they would, but there is a weighting based on the perceived status of the animal. Otherwise we would feel compelled to destroy all carnivores, since a single carnivore can kill many, many prey throughout its lifetime. We agree that the utility a lion gets from eating a dozen zebras is greater than the suffering of those zebras. Also, note that predators, do not just kill strictly what they need for food(biggest example is housecats, though other examples include wolves killing elk https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/03/160325-wolf-pack-kills-19-wolves-surplus-killing-wyoming/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/03/160325-wolf-...). Similarly, humans have a weighting function. Many people think that the utility/pleasure that a human gets from eating octopuses is greater than the suffering of those octopuses.
- sachdevap 7y ago
  Morals are not decided by a democratic majority. Nor do ethical beliefs need to stem from a higher authority. You can have consistent principles independent of either.
  - matz1 7y ago
    Moral are decided by the whoever can force other (persuasively or physically) to conform to their morality. Democratic majority often get to decided the morality because there is strength in numbers.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

abfan1127 7y ago

this seems like the idea that Americans eat cows and pigs, but not horses and dogs... not necessarily an ethical issue, but more a social norms issue.

elliekelly 7y ago
> not necessarily an ethical issue, but more a social norms issue. I'm not convinced these two things are mutually exclusive. I'd even guess that social norms are most often spurred to change by people who start the conversation about the flawed "ethics" of a given social norm.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

>Ethics is not something dictated by a number of ppl sharing a belief. Unless you believe ethics is given from some sort of higher authority, ethics is dictated by the number of people sharing a belief.

john-radio 7y ago
Nope, that's a false dichotomy. The ethical system you're proposing signs off on cannibalism of 49% of people as long as 51% of people click their heels together and really wish that cannibalism were ethical...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
martimarkov 7y ago
My argument is that a higher number of believers doesn’t make something more ethically correct. My personal belief is that we have a responsibility for all species on our planet (as the most intelligent, evolved, smart, etc of them). Even if everyone believes except 1 person that does not make their argument less or our argument more valid. Purely from an ethical perspective.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  I understand your perspective, but as the GP said, ethics is exactly whatever the collective Haas decided it is. Unless we're involving God or some kind of external divine guidelines on ethics, it's pretty much something we've collectively agreed to. Let's at least be honest about our moral/ethical frameworks. They are useful for social cohesiveness, peace and order. But they're still just made up.
  - bscphil 7y ago
    > I understand your perspective, but as the GP said, ethics is exactly whatever the collective Haas decided it is. Unless we're involving God or some kind of external divine guidelines on ethics, it's pretty much something we've collectively agreed to. I don't have time for a complete response, but as an expert in this field (ethics) I feel compelled to let you know that nearly every professional philosopher (particularly in ethics) disagrees with this position. Ethics is not simply whatever the majority says it is. You're not going to get anyone in ethics (including those who think ethics are in some sense "made up") to sign off on that.
    - matz1 7y ago
      >that nearly every professional philosopher >You're not going to get anyone in ethics Isn't this exactly an argument supporting collective position ?
    - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
      > that nearly every professional philosopher (particularly in ethics) disagrees with this position. So you are (at least partially) defining ethics by the consensus of people (in your case professional philosophers). Even in pure mathematics, which is considered to be among the most rigorous of fields, a whole lot depends on consensus about axioms and consensus about what is a valid proof. Yes, I agree there are logical principles for determining ethical actions given a set of ethical axioms, but however, the ethical axioms themselves, and indeed the logical principles, are determined by consensus.
pavanky 7y ago
I dont care who or what is dictating them, as long as they are consistent. If someone is making the claim that it is OK to eat anything as long as they are delicious, I want to know what their stand on cannibalism is.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
  How about if someone makes the claim that their ethical framework is to try to maximize pleasure and minimize suffering for humans. Therefore since eating delicious animals brings pleasure to many humans, and does not cause suffering for humans, it is a good thing.
  - lprubin 7y ago
    I think then the discussion would be around why only minimizing suffering for humans. If minimizing suffering is a good thing, why is there not also value in minimizing suffering for all beings that can suffer?
    - spdionis 7y ago
      Because there's no pleasure in that for humans? Of course that becomes wrong if many humans embrace the idea that minimizing suffering for animals is a good thing. At that point you would also be increasing the humans' "moral/ethical pleasure" in a kind of self fulfilling way. But there's no reason for this to happen except human hubris.
- matz1 7y ago
  My ethical framework is ethical egoism. Therefore I consider eating octopus is good but cannibalism is bad. Because cannibalism, even if it delicious, is not practical, and maybe illegal thus will cause me trouble.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Promoting cannibalism is generally not a good policy if only because you could be next.
chibg10 7y ago
The truth value of a given logical proposition is independent of how many people believe either way about it. You're mistaking ethics as a branch of philosophy for norms dictated by society.
- matz1 7y ago
  The truth value of given logical proposition is dependent on people agreeing in some common axiom.
  - chibg10 7y ago
    Right, and that choice of axiom is how two reasonable people can come to wildly different conclusions about a subject even after spending time resolving reconcilable differences. But empirically speaking, almost all people would agree at a high-level that minimizing suffering is an agreeable axiom.
    - matz1 7y ago
      yes so if you can make almost all people would agree that eating octopus is bad or eating octopus is good then that will be the outcome.
    - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
      >almost all people would agree at a high-level that minimizing suffering is an agreeable axiom Yes, they would, but there is a weighting based on the perceived status of the animal. Otherwise we would feel compelled to destroy all carnivores, since a single carnivore can kill many, many prey throughout its lifetime. We agree that the utility a lion gets from eating a dozen zebras is greater than the suffering of those zebras. Also, note that predators, do not just kill strictly what they need for food(biggest example is housecats, though other examples include wolves killing elk https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/03/160325-wolf-pack-kills-19-wolves-surplus-killing-wyoming/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/03/160325-wolf-...). Similarly, humans have a weighting function. Many people think that the utility/pleasure that a human gets from eating octopuses is greater than the suffering of those octopuses.
sachdevap 7y ago
Morals are not decided by a democratic majority. Nor do ethical beliefs need to stem from a higher authority. You can have consistent principles independent of either.
- matz1 7y ago
  Moral are decided by the whoever can force other (persuasively or physically) to conform to their morality. Democratic majority often get to decided the morality because there is strength in numbers.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]