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Userspace drivers permit upgrading the kernel to a certain point (depending on how kernel APIs change), but your forever trapped with the bugs and vulnerabiliti

Userspace drivers permit upgrading the kernel to a certain point (depending on how kernel APIs change), but your forever trapped with the bugs and vulnerabilities in the userspace blobs. Its a step forward in kernel upgradability, but it also takes the pressure off vendors like Qualcomm and ARM to upstream their patches. I hope the kernel continues making significant changes that break out of tree, proprietary drivers. The harder it is for these players to act in bad faith, the sooner they'll collaborate with the kernel developers and mainline their code.

wmf 7y ago
What if we pressure Qualcomm and ARM for 20 years but they still don't upstream anything? What about 50 years? Would you change your position?
- StudentStuff 7y ago
  So long as they're spending most of their cash on maintaining out of tree patchesets for the Linux kernel, that is tens to hundreds of millions a year in wasted money on their part. Eventually the community will write their own drivers (as has happened with Mali) and the respective vendor will have a reckoning internally (like what happened with AMD's GPU driver) whereby those advocating for wasting money on out of tree code leave the organization with egg on their face for bilking the company out of significant R&D cash. It is very hard to claim that its worth it to develop a proprietary driver when a comparable performance driver already exists for your hardware in-tree. The in-tree driver will almost certainly be easier to use & break less often than out of tree code that the kernel devs don't think or care about breaking.
pjmlp 7y ago
As proven by every other OS with proper driver ABI, this isn't an issue. And as proven by FOSS drivers that eventually got purged from kernel tree, having source available is meaningless if everyone just lets the code rotten to the point of being purged. As for pressuring vendors, the source code is available, and the license allows them to never upstream, it isn't as if Joe and Jane know what that is when buying a new phone.
- StudentStuff 7y ago
  Windows has had multiple breaking changes to the driver ABI between Windows XP and present. There is no "proper" futureproof driver ABI, otherwise there would be a major OS using one.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    In almost 40 years, there were two breaking changes from 9X to NT family, from XP to Vista. Two. Linux? Who's counting anyway.

wmf 7y ago

What if we pressure Qualcomm and ARM for 20 years but they still don't upstream anything? What about 50 years? Would you change your position?

StudentStuff 7y ago
So long as they're spending most of their cash on maintaining out of tree patchesets for the Linux kernel, that is tens to hundreds of millions a year in wasted money on their part. Eventually the community will write their own drivers (as has happened with Mali) and the respective vendor will have a reckoning internally (like what happened with AMD's GPU driver) whereby those advocating for wasting money on out of tree code leave the organization with egg on their face for bilking the company out of significant R&D cash. It is very hard to claim that its worth it to develop a proprietary driver when a comparable performance driver already exists for your hardware in-tree. The in-tree driver will almost certainly be easier to use & break less often than out of tree code that the kernel devs don't think or care about breaking.

pjmlp 7y ago

As proven by every other OS with proper driver ABI, this isn't an issue. And as proven by FOSS drivers that eventually got purged from kernel tree, having source available is meaningless if everyone just lets the code rotten to the point of being purged. As for pressuring vendors, the source code is available, and the license allows them to never upstream, it isn't as if Joe and Jane know what that is when buying a new phone.

StudentStuff 7y ago
Windows has had multiple breaking changes to the driver ABI between Windows XP and present. There is no "proper" futureproof driver ABI, otherwise there would be a major OS using one.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  In almost 40 years, there were two breaking changes from 9X to NT family, from XP to Vista. Two. Linux? Who's counting anyway.