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> Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expen

> Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spectrum are commercially usable and more than adequate https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax

na85 7y ago
>NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. I feel like this is the key differentiator between community mesh projects that succeed and those that don't. At the end of the day, without backhaul you're just saturating a few donors' residential bandwidth.
- thinkloop 7y ago
  I thought mesh networks were peer-to-peer? If people's connections to the internet are single pre-determined nodes, isn't that more like mini ISPs?
  - na85 7y ago
    In any given mesh of peers, or for example the NYC mesh, suppose I am a mesh client with no ISP. How do I get internet without using another mesh client's ISP connection? Edit: can't reply because rate limited or something. My point is that relying on good will doesn't scale.
    - thinkloop 7y ago
      I thought mesh is supposed to involve hopping from neighbor to neighbor - not everyone directly connected to an ISP. What is the difference then besides that it is volunteer-run with donated bandwidth?
      - fragmede 7y ago
        While many neighbors could be connected directly to a traditional ISP, in a hilly/mountainous area, only a few nodes may be able to connect directly to an ISP, and this will connect indirectly accessible nodes to the Internet via only intermediary nodes. This is not theoretical - the test network in Oregon does this.
    - fragmede 7y ago
      There's payment (out and also in), so it doesn't rely (entirely) on good will - running a connectivity-important node can even net you payments!
thinkloop 7y ago
> NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul Why/how is it free? How much is it typically? Do all/most cities have "backhaul" easily available? Isn't backhaul owned by ISPs as well and basically like a fat pipe? A barrage of questions, but I'm quite interested!
- fragmede 7y ago
  NYC, among very few other places in the US, actually has some insanely good options for business grade (and priced) connectivity. (HFTs pay for very high speed connectivity.) As for why it's free to NYC mesh, I don't know. Pet project of an employee?
- vidarh 7y ago
  You can get connections suitable for backhaul pretty much anywhere as long as you are within reach, or prepared to pay for, a copper or fibre connection to an exchange. It just costs more. I'm not up to date on prices. Backhaul is 'just' another connection but without the same contractual restrictions as you'll usually find on normal subscriber connections. You'll find it used in at least two different ways: as a synonym of transit to talk about a way for your ISP to connect to any other ISP via the provider they get it from, and as a means of having an access provider forward last mile traffic to one or more central locations. But in both cases it just suggests that you have agreed with a provider to forward traffic for your users on your behalf.
- jkilpatr 7y ago
  > Why/how is it free? How much is it typically? Do all/most cities have "backhaul" easily available? Isn't backhaul owned by ISPs as well and basically like a fat pipe? Sometimes but not always, the Tier 2 internet market is acutally quite competitive and usually you can get fiber from a couple of providers within 50 miles of any location in the US (5 or less if it's reasonably populated). The problem of course is to be an ISP you have to deliver the traffic that last few miles. This whole thing is further obfuscated by the fact that the entire infrastructure market is very human powered. Few providers provide public maps and in order to find these fiber connections you literally have to know the right people. The internet has automated everything but those people building and maintaining the backbone still need sales calls to tell you where they can connect and a bribe before you get a good price.
Matticus_Rex 7y ago
Heh, I clicked the comments on this to make sure Althea was being talked about. Glad to see you guys are getting deserved attention!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

na85 7y ago

>NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. I feel like this is the key differentiator between community mesh projects that succeed and those that don't. At the end of the day, without backhaul you're just saturating a few donors' residential bandwidth.

thinkloop 7y ago
I thought mesh networks were peer-to-peer? If people's connections to the internet are single pre-determined nodes, isn't that more like mini ISPs?
- na85 7y ago
  In any given mesh of peers, or for example the NYC mesh, suppose I am a mesh client with no ISP. How do I get internet without using another mesh client's ISP connection? Edit: can't reply because rate limited or something. My point is that relying on good will doesn't scale.
  - thinkloop 7y ago
    I thought mesh is supposed to involve hopping from neighbor to neighbor - not everyone directly connected to an ISP. What is the difference then besides that it is volunteer-run with donated bandwidth?
    - fragmede 7y ago
      While many neighbors could be connected directly to a traditional ISP, in a hilly/mountainous area, only a few nodes may be able to connect directly to an ISP, and this will connect indirectly accessible nodes to the Internet via only intermediary nodes. This is not theoretical - the test network in Oregon does this.
  - fragmede 7y ago
    There's payment (out and also in), so it doesn't rely (entirely) on good will - running a connectivity-important node can even net you payments!

thinkloop 7y ago

> NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul Why/how is it free? How much is it typically? Do all/most cities have "backhaul" easily available? Isn't backhaul owned by ISPs as well and basically like a fat pipe? A barrage of questions, but I'm quite interested!

fragmede 7y ago
NYC, among very few other places in the US, actually has some insanely good options for business grade (and priced) connectivity. (HFTs pay for very high speed connectivity.) As for why it's free to NYC mesh, I don't know. Pet project of an employee?
vidarh 7y ago
You can get connections suitable for backhaul pretty much anywhere as long as you are within reach, or prepared to pay for, a copper or fibre connection to an exchange. It just costs more. I'm not up to date on prices. Backhaul is 'just' another connection but without the same contractual restrictions as you'll usually find on normal subscriber connections. You'll find it used in at least two different ways: as a synonym of transit to talk about a way for your ISP to connect to any other ISP via the provider they get it from, and as a means of having an access provider forward last mile traffic to one or more central locations. But in both cases it just suggests that you have agreed with a provider to forward traffic for your users on your behalf.
jkilpatr 7y ago
> Why/how is it free? How much is it typically? Do all/most cities have "backhaul" easily available? Isn't backhaul owned by ISPs as well and basically like a fat pipe? Sometimes but not always, the Tier 2 internet market is acutally quite competitive and usually you can get fiber from a couple of providers within 50 miles of any location in the US (5 or less if it's reasonably populated). The problem of course is to be an ISP you have to deliver the traffic that last few miles. This whole thing is further obfuscated by the fact that the entire infrastructure market is very human powered. Few providers provide public maps and in order to find these fiber connections you literally have to know the right people. The internet has automated everything but those people building and maintaining the backbone still need sales calls to tell you where they can connect and a bribe before you get a good price.

Matticus_Rex 7y ago

Heh, I clicked the comments on this to make sure Althea was being talked about. Glad to see you guys are getting deserved attention!

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]