5 ms·

Love the project! Why does my intuition suggest big ISPs are going to try to regulate this out of existence in the US. It's depressing.

corey_moncure 7y ago
It's already illegal twice over. Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- icedchai 7y ago
  1) "Breach of contract" isn't illegal. It's a civil violation. Also, they may have "wholesale" internet connections that allow for re-sale. 2) They're using unlicensed spectrum, not amateur radio.
- dmix 7y ago
  The decentralized part will be a necessary part of this then... I highly doubt it's illegal to make open source software which does this.
- jkilpatr 7y ago
  > Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spectrum are commercially usable and more than adequate https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax
  - na85 7y ago
    >NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. I feel like this is the key differentiator between community mesh projects that succeed and those that don't. At the end of the day, without backhaul you're just saturating a few donors' residential bandwidth.
    - thinkloop 7y ago
      I thought mesh networks were peer-to-peer? If people's connections to the internet are single pre-determined nodes, isn't that more like mini ISPs?
      - na85 7y ago
        In any given mesh of peers, or for example the NYC mesh, suppose I am a mesh client with no ISP. How do I get internet without using another mesh client's ISP connection? Edit: can't reply because rate limited or something. My point is that relying on good will doesn't scale.
        thinkloop 7y ago
        I thought mesh is supposed to involve hopping from neighbor to neighbor - not everyone directly connected to an ISP. What is the difference then besides that it is volunteer-run with donated bandwidth?
        fragmede 7y ago
        While many neighbors could be connected directly to a traditional ISP, in a hilly/mountainous area, only a few nodes may be able to connect directly to an ISP, and this will connect indirectly accessible nodes to the Internet via only intermediary nodes. This is not theoretical - the test network in Oregon does this.
        fragmede 7y ago
        There's payment (out and also in), so it doesn't rely (entirely) on good will - running a connectivity-important node can even net you payments!
- oskapt 7y ago
  This isn’t APRS or amateur radio at all. The article doesn’t call out the band info, but if this is running over 2.4 or 5 GHz, it’s unlicensed spectrum and available for use by anyone. If they were running over licensed spectrum, the FCC would have shut them down in the US.
  - myself248 7y ago
    Hams can run high power and high gain antennae with regular wifi gear, they call it HSMM. It doesn't sound like the mesh folks are doing that either, and even if they were, might it fall under part 15.23?
- tlrobinson 7y ago
  Where did they say they were using amateur radio bands?
- cylinder 7y ago
  Alleged breach of a private contract is not "illegal." Please know what you're talking about before providing legal advice.
  - singlow 7y ago
    Breach of contract itself is not illegal, but depending on intent, it could be more than breach. If you enter into a contract with the intent to extract value without abiding by the agreed terms, then it can be considered fraud. Whether it is possible to prove, or worthwhile for that to be pursued by a prosecutor is circumstantial. IANAL
- newguy1234 7y ago
  Couldn't this just be solved by simply encrypting all traffic similar to an onion router setup? Could also be solved by the users just using some sort of VPN which encrypts all traffic. How is the ISP suppose to know you're forwarding traffic?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

corey_moncure 7y ago

It's already illegal twice over. Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
icedchai 7y ago
1) "Breach of contract" isn't illegal. It's a civil violation. Also, they may have "wholesale" internet connections that allow for re-sale. 2) They're using unlicensed spectrum, not amateur radio.
dmix 7y ago
The decentralized part will be a necessary part of this then... I highly doubt it's illegal to make open source software which does this.
jkilpatr 7y ago
> Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spectrum are commercially usable and more than adequate https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax
- na85 7y ago
  >NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. I feel like this is the key differentiator between community mesh projects that succeed and those that don't. At the end of the day, without backhaul you're just saturating a few donors' residential bandwidth.
  - thinkloop 7y ago
    I thought mesh networks were peer-to-peer? If people's connections to the internet are single pre-determined nodes, isn't that more like mini ISPs?
    - na85 7y ago
      In any given mesh of peers, or for example the NYC mesh, suppose I am a mesh client with no ISP. How do I get internet without using another mesh client's ISP connection? Edit: can't reply because rate limited or something. My point is that relying on good will doesn't scale.
      - thinkloop 7y ago
        I thought mesh is supposed to involve hopping from neighbor to neighbor - not everyone directly connected to an ISP. What is the difference then besides that it is volunteer-run with donated bandwidth?
        fragmede 7y ago
        While many neighbors could be connected directly to a traditional ISP, in a hilly/mountainous area, only a few nodes may be able to connect directly to an ISP, and this will connect indirectly accessible nodes to the Internet via only intermediary nodes. This is not theoretical - the test network in Oregon does this.
      - fragmede 7y ago
        There's payment (out and also in), so it doesn't rely (entirely) on good will - running a connectivity-important node can even net you payments!
oskapt 7y ago
This isn’t APRS or amateur radio at all. The article doesn’t call out the band info, but if this is running over 2.4 or 5 GHz, it’s unlicensed spectrum and available for use by anyone. If they were running over licensed spectrum, the FCC would have shut them down in the US.
- myself248 7y ago
  Hams can run high power and high gain antennae with regular wifi gear, they call it HSMM. It doesn't sound like the mesh folks are doing that either, and even if they were, might it fall under part 15.23?
tlrobinson 7y ago
Where did they say they were using amateur radio bands?
cylinder 7y ago
Alleged breach of a private contract is not "illegal." Please know what you're talking about before providing legal advice.
- singlow 7y ago
  Breach of contract itself is not illegal, but depending on intent, it could be more than breach. If you enter into a contract with the intent to extract value without abiding by the agreed terms, then it can be considered fraud. Whether it is possible to prove, or worthwhile for that to be pursued by a prosecutor is circumstantial. IANAL
newguy1234 7y ago
Couldn't this just be solved by simply encrypting all traffic similar to an onion router setup? Could also be solved by the users just using some sort of VPN which encrypts all traffic. How is the ISP suppose to know you're forwarding traffic?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]