8 ms·

Shameless plug: My company Althea (https://althea.net https://althea.net) is making router firmware that makes it easy to people to set up incentivized mesh net

by woah 7y ago

Shameless plug: My company Althea (https://althea.net https://althea.net) is making router firmware that makes it easy to people to set up incentivized mesh networks in their communities. It allows routers to pay each other for bandwidth which means that everyone hosting a node earns money for the packets they forward. We have 2 networks live, one in rural Oregon and one in Medellin, Colombia. Also, 4 more networks people are currently pre-registering subscribers for in their communities, for example https://althea.net/hilltop https://althea.net/hilltop.

corndoge 7y ago
How's Babel treating you at scale? (What scale are you running anyway?) Are you upstreaming your changes?
- jkilpatr 7y ago
  Our biggest test network is only ~50ish nodes. Simulations show we won't have issues until several thousand. Babel has been very reliable and we haven't really made any changes beyond our extensions. The price extension probably isn't appropriate to upstream. I'll admit I've been remiss up-streaming the full path latency extension.
420codebro 7y ago
As a network architect this seems pretty cool to me - incentivizing individual node/router operators. How is billing & payment reconciliation handled between parties?
- jkilpatr 7y ago
  See my presentation at NANOG 76 on that subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw
chadwittman 7y ago
Love the project! Why does my intuition suggest big ISPs are going to try to regulate this out of existence in the US. It's depressing.
- corey_moncure 7y ago
  It's already illegal twice over. Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - icedchai 7y ago
    1) "Breach of contract" isn't illegal. It's a civil violation. Also, they may have "wholesale" internet connections that allow for re-sale. 2) They're using unlicensed spectrum, not amateur radio.
  - dmix 7y ago
    The decentralized part will be a necessary part of this then... I highly doubt it's illegal to make open source software which does this.
  - jkilpatr 7y ago
    > Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spectrum are commercially usable and more than adequate https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax
    - na85 7y ago
thepete2 7y ago
That sounds awesome. How do the payments work?
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  50 real USD says it's some kind of cryptocurrency nonsense.
  - Kuinox 7y ago
    Well it looks like a rare good application for a cryptocurrency.
  - dang 7y ago
    "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jkilpatr 7y ago
  I explain it in some detail here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw Essentially we use Eth because we don't really need a 'cryptocurrency' as much as we need an api for cash where very small payments (10c) are practical. For reasons that I explain in the presentation the key simplifying assumption of low fee transactions makes a simple billing scheme (pay per forward) work.
  - langitbiru 7y ago
    Yes, one added value that people often miss from Ethereum is programmable money. Ethereum gives you a nice API of money.
  - JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
    Oh it’s so nice to see crypto being used for this!
a-afterglow 7y ago
woah
cristyansv 7y ago
Wow, can you provide more info about Medellin network ?
- jkilpatr 7y ago
  You may appreciate Deborah's blog post. https://blog.althea.net/faster-cheaper-internet-in-medellin-colombia/ https://blog.althea.net/faster-cheaper-internet-in-medellin-... Ask away as far as other questions go.
hnakamura 7y ago
Great!
newguy1234 7y ago
I had this exact idea a few years back. Great to see someone working on it! Brilliant! I could actually use this service at my work. Being able to pay 25 cents/gb on my mobile would be amazing, especially if it is really fast speeds.
stefan_ 7y ago
It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup. Ironically I went back to the 2015 thread and found much the same "shameless plug", minus the Blockchain.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  Replacing few freeloader nodes in a volunteer network with a whole rent-seeking company. Pretty sad.
- dpatru 7y ago
  > It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup. You're implying that there is something shameful with providing a market for connectivity which allows for people who can't afford to work for free to participate. What is shameful about this?
  - robert_foss 7y ago
    Taking attention from a free community project to market your for profit company certainly isn't a purely altruistic thing to do.
    - strider12 7y ago
      theres still a monthly fee for free. weird right.
      - jmd304 7y ago
        it's a donation
    - Matticus_Rex 7y ago
      Taking attention? I have enough attention for both. Who cares if it isn't altruistic? 99.9% of human interaction isn't, and most of it is positive.
MarcysVonEylau 7y ago
It was a nice idea until the website mentioned block chain...
lr4444lr 7y ago
Isn't there a liability issue here? If I join the network and someone were to use my node in the transmission of something like child porn, how are you so sure I wouldn't be pinched for it?
awzeemo 7y ago
Great post by NYC Mesh on why companies like Althea are a total scams or run by morons (probably both) --> https://www.nycmesh.net/blog/meshcoin https://www.nycmesh.net/blog/meshcoin
- quantisan 7y ago
  /u/woah Thoughts?
Eyeroll 7y ago
All yall talking about altruism but no one is really making internet faster and more affordable. This shit is revolutionary, and the system it sets up is going to be the backbone of a network of Co-ops in the next 10 years. A parallel economy is possible.

by woah 7y ago

corndoge 7y ago

How's Babel treating you at scale? (What scale are you running anyway?) Are you upstreaming your changes?

jkilpatr 7y ago
Our biggest test network is only ~50ish nodes. Simulations show we won't have issues until several thousand. Babel has been very reliable and we haven't really made any changes beyond our extensions. The price extension probably isn't appropriate to upstream. I'll admit I've been remiss up-streaming the full path latency extension.

420codebro 7y ago

As a network architect this seems pretty cool to me - incentivizing individual node/router operators. How is billing & payment reconciliation handled between parties?

jkilpatr 7y ago
See my presentation at NANOG 76 on that subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw

chadwittman 7y ago

Love the project! Why does my intuition suggest big ISPs are going to try to regulate this out of existence in the US. It's depressing.

corey_moncure 7y ago
It's already illegal twice over. Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- icedchai 7y ago
  1) "Breach of contract" isn't illegal. It's a civil violation. Also, they may have "wholesale" internet connections that allow for re-sale. 2) They're using unlicensed spectrum, not amateur radio.
- dmix 7y ago
  The decentralized part will be a necessary part of this then... I highly doubt it's illegal to make open source software which does this.
- jkilpatr 7y ago
  > Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spectrum are commercially usable and more than adequate https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax
  - na85 7y ago

thepete2 7y ago

That sounds awesome. How do the payments work?

ForHackernews 7y ago
50 real USD says it's some kind of cryptocurrency nonsense.
- Kuinox 7y ago
  Well it looks like a rare good application for a cryptocurrency.
- dang 7y ago
  "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jkilpatr 7y ago
I explain it in some detail here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw Essentially we use Eth because we don't really need a 'cryptocurrency' as much as we need an api for cash where very small payments (10c) are practical. For reasons that I explain in the presentation the key simplifying assumption of low fee transactions makes a simple billing scheme (pay per forward) work.
- langitbiru 7y ago
  Yes, one added value that people often miss from Ethereum is programmable money. Ethereum gives you a nice API of money.
- JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
  Oh it’s so nice to see crypto being used for this!

a-afterglow 7y ago

woah

cristyansv 7y ago

Wow, can you provide more info about Medellin network ?

jkilpatr 7y ago
You may appreciate Deborah's blog post. https://blog.althea.net/faster-cheaper-internet-in-medellin-colombia/ https://blog.althea.net/faster-cheaper-internet-in-medellin-... Ask away as far as other questions go.

hnakamura 7y ago

Great!

newguy1234 7y ago

I had this exact idea a few years back. Great to see someone working on it! Brilliant! I could actually use this service at my work. Being able to pay 25 cents/gb on my mobile would be amazing, especially if it is really fast speeds.

stefan_ 7y ago

It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup. Ironically I went back to the 2015 thread and found much the same "shameless plug", minus the Blockchain.

eeZah7Ux 7y ago
Replacing few freeloader nodes in a volunteer network with a whole rent-seeking company. Pretty sad.
dpatru 7y ago
> It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup. You're implying that there is something shameful with providing a market for connectivity which allows for people who can't afford to work for free to participate. What is shameful about this?
- robert_foss 7y ago
  Taking attention from a free community project to market your for profit company certainly isn't a purely altruistic thing to do.
  - strider12 7y ago
    theres still a monthly fee for free. weird right.
    - jmd304 7y ago
      it's a donation
  - Matticus_Rex 7y ago
    Taking attention? I have enough attention for both. Who cares if it isn't altruistic? 99.9% of human interaction isn't, and most of it is positive.

MarcysVonEylau 7y ago

It was a nice idea until the website mentioned block chain...

lr4444lr 7y ago

Isn't there a liability issue here? If I join the network and someone were to use my node in the transmission of something like child porn, how are you so sure I wouldn't be pinched for it?

awzeemo 7y ago

Great post by NYC Mesh on why companies like Althea are a total scams or run by morons (probably both) --> https://www.nycmesh.net/blog/meshcoin https://www.nycmesh.net/blog/meshcoin

quantisan 7y ago
/u/woah Thoughts?

Eyeroll 7y ago

All yall talking about altruism but no one is really making internet faster and more affordable. This shit is revolutionary, and the system it sets up is going to be the backbone of a network of Co-ops in the next 10 years. A parallel economy is possible.